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Old 10-05-13, 06:18 AM   #76
Dawes-man
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Not hanging on the wall (that's my wife's Hetchins - been there for a couple of years now) but I have a 1956 H.R. Morris frame behind the sofa in the living room, waiting for me to finish building it - I've got as far as fitting balls to the headset.

Being in Japan, we sleep on a futon on a tatami floor and when I reach out from the futon to slide the door open in the morning this beauty is what greets me:

[IMG] Untitled by Dawes-man, on Flickr[/IMG]

This is where my latest build, a 1954 Rotrax Super Course, lived until a few weeks ago and I enjoyed seeing it there in the morning, too. Now I'm enjoying riding it as I will eventually enjoy the HRM. Before that, it was home to a 1947 Rotrax.

As far as I'm concerned, bicycles are meant to be enjoyed and there are many, many ways to enjoy them.

Last edited by Dawes-man; 10-05-13 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 10-05-13, 06:32 AM   #77
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I'm not seeing how this discussion is "off topic". Are we not discussing the merits of the bicycle as art? The or? in Rootboys title is an open invitation to discuss the bicycle as a tool to be ridden....or? in this case we ask can it also be seen as and displayed as art?

This could all be solved if iab would just tell us all what art is

I'm guessing it will be some Eurocentric pretentious claim that the "fine arts" (music, poetry, painting, sculpture and architecture) are somehow seperate from artisanal craft. A view that only appeared with the rise of the European middle class during the 18th century.

For thousands of years prior to this though, art was (and still is) "artisans practicing a craft that may, through experience and aptitude, reach the expressive levels of an artist."

...and guess what? Bicycles fit quite nicely into that definition of art
Incorrect.

Even Duchamp questioned value of readymades as art. And readymades have an artist intent. Craft does not.
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Old 10-05-13, 06:36 AM   #78
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Once again, a discussion has devolved into a nasty exchange thanks to a member who seems to like to argue for the sake or argument.
On the subject of what constitutes ART, for Kriest's sake.
I'll type slowly so you can understand.

For some reason some people think if you only look at an object and not utilize its function, it automatically becomes art. It does not.
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Old 10-05-13, 07:13 AM   #79
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Incorrect.

Even Duchamp questioned value of readymades as art. And readymades have an artist intent. Craft does not.
Sigh. Craft doesn't have an artist intent? Bold statement coming from someone who has yet to provide an opinion of what constitutes "art" rather than pointing out what doesn't. I've heard better from first year art school students. You seem set in your view though, whatever it might be.
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Old 10-05-13, 07:14 AM   #80
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I'll type slowly so you can understand.

For some reason some people think if you only look at an object and not utilize its function, it automatically becomes art. It does not.
Your argument about art was not what I was referring to, though you obviously think you have the answer to what may be the mother of all un-winnable debates. Been done for centuries. And anyone who thinks they have it nailed is a bore.

As for your first sentence, I'll respond succinctly so that you can understand. Your self-important posts, about art, and most other subjects,
are pompous and arrogant. Anyone who would type that, either slowly or quickly, is a nasty, hubris-sodden individual. I'm not sure why you believe you must be that way on this forum. I note that these repugnant traits don't seem to rear their ugly heads over on the CR list. Why here? Is it because you feel superior to most members on this forum?
You keep disrupting threads with your penchant for arguing for what seems like argument's sake. It's one thing to be knowledgeable and know it.
It's another thing to bludgeon people with your over-bearing personality.
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Old 10-05-13, 07:42 AM   #81
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Sorry I am very late to the party here just working way too much. I am with the ride it crowd. Unless it is really old and fragile' it should be ridden and enjoyed even if it is only a few times a year.
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Old 10-05-13, 09:39 AM   #82
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Sigh. Craft doesn't have an artist intent? Bold statement coming from someone who has yet to provide an opinion of what constitutes "art" rather than pointing out what doesn't. I've heard better from first year art school students. You seem set in your view though, whatever it might be.
So you want my definition of art? Simple. I accept the conventional definition of art. I do not make up new meanings of words to suit my needs as you do. You can do your Bill Clinton bull**** of "It depends on what your definition of is is.", but the fact of the matter is art is defined by about 500 art critics in New York. Not a single one will ever call a bicycle art. Ever. And I don't care whether you like it or not, that is just a fact. You can have any word have any meaning you wish, but that doesn't make it the accepted standard.

And your multi-culturalism bashing post 18th century eurocentrism rant is the height of irony. If some culture in the south Indian ocean wants to define certain objects as art as defined by their culture, that's fine. But the bicycle was invented in Europe. After the 18th century. A different culture's view of it is irrelevant.
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Old 10-05-13, 09:44 AM   #83
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Your argument about art was not what I was referring to, though you obviously think you have the answer to what may be the mother of all un-winnable debates. Been done for centuries. And anyone who thinks they have it nailed is a bore.

As for your first sentence, I'll respond succinctly so that you can understand. Your self-important posts, about art, and most other subjects,
are pompous and arrogant. Anyone who would type that, either slowly or quickly, is a nasty, hubris-sodden individual. I'm not sure why you believe you must be that way on this forum. I note that these repugnant traits don't seem to rear their ugly heads over on the CR list. Why here? Is it because you feel superior to most members on this forum?
You keep disrupting threads with your penchant for arguing for what seems like argument's sake. It's one thing to be knowledgeable and know it.
It's another thing to bludgeon people with your over-bearing personality.
Nice name calling. You have a great penchant for it as you have directed it towards me on several occasions.

I'm sorry if I don't buy into your kumbaya round table. I certainly don't take offence by your differing opinions. But as soon as I write anything contrary you think it is OK to start with the name calling.

And finally, I do appreciate the direct reply instead of the third-person attack you did previously.
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Old 10-05-13, 09:52 AM   #84
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Can I suggest we all just make fun of Art Garfunkle and leave the debate about the artistic and aesthetic merits of goods to the surviving members of Warhol's factory?

Boy that Art Garfunkle was bad in Boxing Helena!
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Old 10-05-13, 09:53 AM   #85
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So you want my definition of art? Simple. I accept the conventional definition of art. I do not make up new meanings of words to suit my needs as you do. You can do your Bill Clinton bull**** of "It depends on what your definition of is is.", but the fact of the matter is art is defined by about 500 art critics in New York. Not a single one will ever call a bicycle art. Ever. And I don't care whether you like it or not, that is just a fact. You can have any word have any meaning you wish, but that doesn't make it the accepted standard.

And your multi-culturalism bashing post 18th century eurocentrism rant is the height of irony. If some culture in the south Indian ocean wants to define certain objects as art as defined by their culture, that's fine. But the bicycle was invented in Europe. After the 18th century. A different culture's view of it is irrelevant.
The root word of art is...you guessed it, craft. The irony here is that you still can't present an argument for what constitutes art (fine art?),,,only "whatever the folks in New York say it is"

You're ignorance to the multiple avant garde art movements within our own Western culture against this antiquated and narrow minded view of art is astounding as you seem to present yourself as such an expert.
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Old 10-05-13, 10:09 AM   #86
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Jeeze, guys. Chill.
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Old 10-05-13, 10:16 AM   #87
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Seems pretty civil to me, almost productive discussion even...just a difference of opinion.
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Old 10-05-13, 10:32 AM   #88
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Holy crap a nasty debate on what constitutes "art" on a vintage bike forum. What fun. Do even the slightest bit of research and you will find that the definition of "art" is controversial even among those much more knowledgeable than most of us here. So what is the point in arguing about it?

I have gotten into this discussion before since I have a large number or very rarely ridden wall hangers and quite often when I exhibit one I get a comment about what a shame it is that it never get's ridden. I don't really understand that since the fact that the bikes aren't getting ridden in no way detracts from their value or their future utility. Many people have huge collections of vinyl records. Is it a shame that they never get played anymore? I have boxes of vintage comic books. Is it a shame that they don't get read anymore? I have absolutely no problem with people riding whatever bikes they want no matter how rare or distinguished but for me most of the value in a vintage bike is the visual appeal, the nostalgic appeal, etc. Frankly, for me, I don't ride the vintage bikes because they suck compared to a modern bike as far as their functionality. Give me brifters, step in pedals, ergo bars, good brakes, wide gear ranges, etc. Modern bikes just work better. But I don't feel they have the visual appeal of vintage bikes, they don't have the nostalgic appeal, the history, the soul if you will. I think vintage bikes are similar in most respects to other vintage functional objects that are collected. Sure you can still use them and many occasionally do but most are seriously deficient in their functionality versus modern versions. I love 60s muscle cars. But they are a pain to drive and I would no longer use one for more than the Sunday cruise. I have a modern muscle car that I daily drive. It has functional air conditioning and heating, good tires, ABS, traction control, etc. I love mechanical watches and I do wear them but I honestly rarely look at them to find out the time. I wear them because they are beautiful and I like the fact that a real person spent real effort to craft them.

Anyway that's my probably useless $.02
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Old 10-05-13, 10:52 AM   #89
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this art discussion is much more intriguing than whether or not someone hangs up a non-rider.

i do think iab is a little high strung and has painted himself in a corner. cobrabyte seems to nail the issue.

art garfunkel has one of the most beautiful voices i've ever heard (especially in harmony with paul simon). and he stars in a great mike nichols film, 'carnal knowledge.' you can hear his voice in the background of the even better nichols film, 'the graduate.'
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Old 10-05-13, 11:08 AM   #90
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Nice name calling. You have a great penchant for it as you have directed it towards me on several occasions.

I'm sorry if I don't buy into your kumbaya round table. I certainly don't take offence by your differing opinions. But as soon as I write anything contrary you think it is OK to start with the name calling.

And finally, I do appreciate the direct reply instead of the third-person attack you did previously.
It's not what you write. It's the way you write it. There it is again; "kumbaya round table". I can appreciate differing opinions. Except when it is presented with such a condescending attitude.
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Old 10-05-13, 11:24 AM   #91
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what would a c&v bike look like if rothko painted the frame? a traditional red and black motobecane grand record?

case closed?
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Old 10-05-13, 11:34 AM   #92
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I have a bike mounted to an indoor trainer. I never use it. It's my pièce de résistance!
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Old 10-05-13, 12:28 PM   #93
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Holy crap a nasty debate on what constitutes "art" on a vintage bike forum. What fun. Do even the slightest bit of research and you will find that the definition of "art" is controversial even among those much more knowledgeable than most of us here. So what is the point in arguing about it?

I have gotten into this discussion before since I have a large number or very rarely ridden wall hangers and quite often when I exhibit one I get a comment about what a shame it is that it never get's ridden. I don't really understand that since the fact that the bikes aren't getting ridden in no way detracts from their value or their future utility. Many people have huge collections of vinyl records. Is it a shame that they never get played anymore? I have boxes of vintage comic books. Is it a shame that they don't get read anymore? I have absolutely no problem with people riding whatever bikes they want no matter how rare or distinguished but for me most of the value in a vintage bike is the visual appeal, the nostalgic appeal, etc. Frankly, for me, I don't ride the vintage bikes because they suck compared to a modern bike as far as their functionality. Give me brifters, step in pedals, ergo bars, good brakes, wide gear ranges, etc. Modern bikes just work better. But I don't feel they have the visual appeal of vintage bikes, they don't have the nostalgic appeal, the history, the soul if you will. I think vintage bikes are similar in most respects to other vintage functional objects that are collected. Sure you can still use them and many occasionally do but most are seriously deficient in their functionality versus modern versions. I love 60s muscle cars. But they are a pain to drive and I would no longer use one for more than the Sunday cruise. I have a modern muscle car that I daily drive. It has functional air conditioning and heating, good tires, ABS, traction control, etc. I love mechanical watches and I do wear them but I honestly rarely look at them to find out the time. I wear them because they are beautiful and I like the fact that a real person spent real effort to craft them.

Anyway that's my probably useless $.02
Personally, I like what you define as pain. There's soul in old bikes, cars, motorcycles and yes vinyl LP's. It's most gratifying shifting the gears or wallowing thru a corner on a British motorcycle or finding the sweet spot, double clutching a funky trans and drifting an old Porsche 911. Just like an old bicycle, they have the quirks but ooze character. You have only a slight delay of shifting, a bit more cautious on braking, probably dragging twice the weight of a newer bike but who cares? 99% of cyclist are not racing and you basically have the same workout.
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Old 10-05-13, 04:46 PM   #94
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Personally, I like what you define as pain. There's soul in old bikes, cars, motorcycles and yes vinyl LP's. It's most gratifying shifting the gears or wallowing thru a corner on a British motorcycle or finding the sweet spot, double clutching a funky trans and drifting an old Porsche 911. Just like an old bicycle, they have the quirks but ooze character. You have only a slight delay of shifting, a bit more cautious on braking, probably dragging twice the weight of a newer bike but who cares? 99% of cyclist are not racing and you basically have the same workout.
I gotcha and in some cases I do like the challenge of something older and not quite as "functional". I have an old motorcycle (a Ducati). It is slow and honestly doesn't handle that great but I enjoy getting the best out of it. Bicycles just aren't one of those things for me. I understand that they are for a some people and that is cool. Some times I like the challenge of having to work more to get the best out of something for awhile and then tire of it. I had a 63 VW bus for instance. For awhile it was fun to deal with all its weirdness. But as a daily driver it just became too much to put up with its unreliability and just the raw effort sometimes required to get from point A to B (especially if the path from A to B contained a steep hill or a highway). At that point I bought a new car and as much as I would have liked to have kept the bus for the occasional drive I couldn't afford it at the time.

I am definitely not saying I never ride the old bikes, just that they are mostly for looking at for me these days. I think it might be different if I lived in an area with a lot of flat riding. But with lots of hills shifting downtube shifted, non-indexed drivetrains is a real hassle for me, especially since I am a spinner not a stomper and keeping the right gear so I keep cadence is important. It also aggravates a back issue, as does a slammed riding position and high gears (those hills again). Since the old bikes I like are racing bikes they just aren't practical for me to ride except rarely. But I do like to work on them and look at them so I keep a bunch for that purpose. Some day I'll sell them or I'll die and my wife will sell them and someone will get a chance to enjoy them however they want and they will be none the worse for having hung on my wall.
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Old 10-05-13, 05:40 PM   #95
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May i suggest a nice, quiet, soothing ride as opposed to this...banter.
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Old 10-05-13, 06:52 PM   #96
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art
1.
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
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Old 10-05-13, 07:13 PM   #97
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After spending sometimes years collecting parts restoring a Mtn. bike, I always eventually end up riding them somewhere in the mud. Afterwards I regret it and wish I hadn't. I look at the derailleur I spent hours cleaning and making just right, the once NOS freewheel that I spent way too much for on ebay, the 30 year old nos tire that after one ride has cracks on the sidewall and wonder what have I done.

I then spend months cleaning and re lubing while gathering for the next project to start over again.

Not sure how someone can look at a beautiful fillet brazed Steve Potts frame from the 80's and not admire it and the passion that went into making each weld and not think it is art. To each his own I guess.

When the last Record crank arm has snapped in two. Then will you be totally satisfied.
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Old 10-05-13, 07:43 PM   #98
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All over the planet there are aviation museums displaying vintage aircraft that are on static display and don't fly. I am not aware of any general outcry from flight enthusiasts about getting all these old machines into the air as a matter of moral necessity. The fact they they are housed, preserved and enjoyed for what they are is sufficient for all those who enjoy relics from a bygone age.

I have projects stored up in bits, but I expect that they will all be ridden at some point in the future. And, like as with Dawes-man, some of them end up somewhere around my futon. If my 979 ever comes un-bonded, I expect that it will become a "hanger".
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Old 10-06-13, 05:26 AM   #99
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The root word of art is...you guessed it, craft. The irony here is that you still can't present an argument for what constitutes art (fine art?),,,only "whatever the folks in New York say it is"

You're ignorance to the multiple avant garde art movements within our own Western culture against this antiquated and narrow minded view of art is astounding as you seem to present yourself as such an expert.
Again, it is not my job, neither yours, to define art. The critics in New York get to decide what is art. They were the ones who decided that the multiple avant garde movements you mention are art. Not you. Not me. I seem to understand that fact.

So if a bike is art, as you claim, prove it. Get on your bike, pedal it to any art gallery in the world, western or otherwise, ask the gallery owner to sell your bike as art. Let us know how that works out for you. Post your report here.
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Old 10-06-13, 05:41 AM   #100
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art
1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
If that's from Websters, well, I'll buy it over the opinion of 500 self-appointed art-critics in NYC. In a heartbeat. That's a no-brainer, isn't it?

By that definition, it's obvious a bike (or any finely-crafted item) can be considered art. I'm sure if we started a poll across the Forum we could come up with at least 500 bike-guys/gals that would say a bike is art - but would that make it so? Of course not.

To each his own. I think they're art, standing still, hanging on a wall or being ridden into the ground.

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