miamijim

Not really. the first 2 cogs of an 8s cassette have built in spacers so you need to source extra thin spacers to get your optimal 5s spacing.

LesterOfPuppets

Who really wants 11t, 12t and 13t cogs, anyway?

I know there are cassettes that start at 13, and maybe even some 14t, but kinda rare when you're scavenging.

cyclotoine

Yeah? What are the downsides? No offense. I see none. Shimano claims and independent test corroborate that 10 speed chains last longer than 9 speed. cog wear is most significantly a function of chain wear.. i.e. a worn chain wears cogs faster than any other factor. So keep your chains fresh and your cassette lasts longer. Longer wearing chain means fewer chain changes and long lasting cassettes. I don't see the downside here. Wheels are also stronger than ever so that can't be a downside either.

Disclaimer:

To be clear, I have nothing against the products discussed in this thread. I absolutely applaud the production of new parts the allow better performance and continued use of older bikes. It's fantastic and if I had a frame I loved I would be happy to use these products, but I am a gear head. I love vintage for being vintage and accept it's limitations and use them within those limitations. I think modern 1x11 drive trains are the bomb and ride modern road and mountain equipment (and vintage to on occasion). The difference is striking and I have been attacked on forums that accuse me of being a crappy rider because I can ride as fast on a vintage bike as on a modern bike. I suspect those who think that vintage is just as fast are riding the same trails they were riding on their vintage MTB's 20 years ago and have not progressed in their riding. The difference ripping fast technical descent with modern suspension and drivetrain is an unarguable fact. I will concede that on the road the difference is not as stark and a 6 speed steel steed can still easily keep pace with the newest carbon. The variables are controlled on the road and it is the rider that makes the difference... I still enjoy my 2x10 speed modern steel bike.

dddd

I agree.

Only exception is when we're talking friction shifting, where I try to stay ahead of the gear count with the chain width, i.e. I always try to use 9sp chain when the cog spacing is 8 or 7sp. Even 6sp cog spacing can be shifted more aggressively using the 9s chain.

So, as long as there's the option to use a narrower chain, sometimes limited by a C&V bike's chainring spacing, I'll take narrower cog spacing, up to the point where I can no longer use the Uniglide and Suntour cogs (both of which are always happy with 9s chain).

I did notice that, starting with 10s chains, there is increasingly a road-specific and off-road-specific model of chain, at least in Shimano's case.
Formerly, at the 9s level, it was perhaps only the "SL" models of SRAM chain that actually tended to break when used on mtb's.

But I couldn't be happier with the wear resistance and overall durability of the 9s chains I've used from Shimano, Campy and SRAM. KMC too, but I won't use their X-series chain for serious use since the pitch variability is such that I have a hard time getting an accurate read on the "stretch" wear, which doesn't bode well for my hard-to-find or expensive cassette cogs. And I don't know if TaYa ("Bell") offers a 9 or 10s chain yet, but I've found these to actually fail in their 8s version, with some regularity, so I write these off as junk.

cyclotoine

I agree, friction shifting does get a little kludgy when using 9 or 10 speed.

Interesting comments on narrow chains. I recently read a post of someone who claimed to use 10 speed chains on their 9 speed systems. Perhaps it was a comment on this article: Bikerumor Shimano Chainwear Challenge: The Results. I have noticed my partner tends to go through chains as fast as I do on her 9 speed XT compared to my dyna-sys system. and I put in way more miles. It makes me think maybe I should slap a 10 speed chain on her bike next time (Dura-ace not HG-X).... and maybe I should use 7900 chain on my 9 speed touring bike.....

rhm

Ah well what do I know.

I was referring to (1) adverse effects of bad chain line, which you have dispelled, and (2) the severe dishing required to make room for a wide cassette. I thought I'd heard the uneven spoke tension causes problems?

cyclotoine

Certainly if you are using vintage rims and putting more cogs in a narrow frame, then I agree, you'd have to increase the dish and thus weaken the rims, but wider hubs and modern rims take care of those issues. wheels have never been stronger. Wider MTB spacing and through axles are the norm. now and yes down the road the many standards that are rapidly replacing on another will be a problem as people try to keep an old bike going. That I will lament.

LeicaLad 

I have another thread where I’m playing with getting a 126mm freehub to fit into 120-122 dropouts. Same conversations about added dishing, o/c rims, etc. But it is about running C&V 120mm frames as they are.

Thus, while marveling at the fine high end specimens we've been discussing, I suddenly remembered that I had a spare very low-end Shimano 600 EX 5s freehub. I got two NOS for about $8 delivered, IIRC. One is built and running with a 5s 600 EX cassette that was made for it. It’s fine, but it’s not the Dura Ace EX I’m tinkering with on that other thread.

But, I did go dig out the spare 600 EX 5s freehub to see how well a 7s cassette might get me to 6 cogs on that piglet.



It’s an ugly little thing, but it was a freehub and it fit a 120mm frame, and I’ve got two such bikes. The one in service is doing just fine.



From the photos, it is clear that I’d not ride with 6 cogs using 7s spacers. The outer ring is not on far enough, imho.

However, I’ve been listening closely to dddd’s stories and recommendations, and I have a set of 9s spacers and a new 9s chain on the way. I will try the spacers on this hub, too. If my current 5s cluster can become a 6s cluster simply by swapping spacers and buying a new chain, I’ll be rather pleased.

pastorbobnlnh 

This is a great idea, 9 speed spacers on a 6 speed UG freehub, to build a 7 or maybe even an 8 speed UG cassette! My winter rider is set up with a 6 speed UG cassette. I can squeeze 7 cogs (using 7 speed UG spacers) onto the freehub body, but have the same challenge in that the threaded lock cog only threads on about half way. I'd never ride it this way and chance an explosive transmission!

However, In the shop I have a couple of worn 9 speed cassettes and several 9 speed new chains. I also have a great supply of UG cassette cogs. Since I'm running old school Suntour barend shifters, there's no issues there. I'd go and work on it today if only my profession and Christmas weren't in the way!

likebike23

@LeicaLad: If your UG 5 speed hub is anything like my UG 6 speed hub, then you will be able to screw on a bottom bracket lockring instead of the threaded cog to secure the cassette. The lockring is thinner than the cog, and you won't have to deal with uneven spacing on the high gear (meaning you can index 7 of 9 with no issues).

LeicaLad 

Thanks! Another interesting thing to learn today. I had no idea a BB lockring would fit a UG hub! That said, I'm not so sure I like the solution. Most of the BBs in my parts bin are Phil Woods, or French-threaded Stronglight. I had to dig deep to find an OMAS with a loose lockring. It does indeed fit. BUT, I find it rather thick and there is no safety to keep it tightly seated {as in the case of a cog with a chain keeping it tight**. So I think safety suggests better to use the threaded cog.

Even with 9s spacers, I think going up one cog is about all one can safely do, imho, without major changes in chainrings and RD pulleys, too.

Certainly this is the opposite approach of supporting the high-end boutique production that is subject of this thread. I am very pleased to see them. In general, I can't afford 'em, but for the truly special bike, I'm really glad the options are there.

likebike23

I hadn't even thought of that. I've yet to test my "solution", I've got enough backlogged projects to worry about. I was just seeing if it would be feasible to hang on to the UG wheelset given the price and availability of UG cassettes. I'm sure a little blue Loctite would keep it on there, I would think the forces wanting to pull a cassette from a hub aren't that great.

jeirvine 

I love these sorts of projects. So you'd be creating an ultra-6 freehub for 120mm spacing. Dig it. But does the 14t threaded cog not have built-in spacer, and would that also have to be ground down a bit to fit 6 correctly spaced?

Curtis Odom 

Six speed Shimano on 11 speed body.

LeicaLad 

I think I would disagree about the forces leading to a lockring coming loose. Vibration, plus any back peddling, or otherwise free spinning would contribute. Little-by-little, until . . . oops!

Blue Loctite is good, but. . .

I'm grateful for the small stockpile of cogs I have on hand to cover the next decade or so. I love to tinker, but this falls into emergency surgery territory: Good to know it could work as a kludge in a pinch, but not a solution for reliability. Again, imho only.

LeicaLad 

Yes, the idea is to add one more cog on an older C&V freehub. I have the 13t and spaced 15t cogs made for 7s, so slightly thinner than the 6s versions. So, the object is either 6 cogs on a 5s freehub body or 7 cogs on a 6s freehub. The 9s chain idea was new to me. I'll resurrect the other thread to report on results when spacers and chain arrive.

Going down (the 6s cogs on an 11s body) is when you have a 130 or 135mm wheel and frame match and want only 6 speeds. . . I guess. Not sure why someone would want that, tho. ??

If I had one of those beautiful Curtis Odom hubs, I'd want the wheel built to its fullest potential, if you will.

Curtis Odom 

These wheels were built for an all original 1986 Panasonic Team America with Dura Ace down tube SIS shifters.

rootboy 

I may be alone in this but, I think those hubs on the Compass site are ….um…ugly.
With the pregnant bulge and the red accents. Not for me.
I'd save my money and buy a set of Odoms, if it were me.


But then …how can that guy justify the price!?

dddd

I wasn't able to figure out why one would want to use a lockring instead of the normal 1st-position threaded cog to hold the cassette on.
Surely this would reduce the cog count potential, especially since a loose cog without a splined, built-on spacer can't reliably transmit torque upon the threaded end of the freehub body.

And a note about these earliest of UG cassette hubs, all but the Dura-Ace version had the freehub body swaged onto a tubular protrusion of the hubshell itself, instead of the hollow bolt that threads into the bulged portion of the Dura-Ace hub body.
These early non'bolted freehubs had a very bad reputation, in that the swaging often failed, leaving the freehub body itself retained only by axle bearing adjustment tension. This couldn't fail catastrophically, but one would have a very hard time adjusting the bearings since the outer race of the driveside axle bearing was free to rock on the hubshell.
So go ahead and use any built wheel that you might have, but I wouldn't go to the trouble of building a wheel around such a failure-prone hub.
I've had two such hubs with this issue, both on 600-equipped bikes although one had a dust shield that was marked model 60 iir.

Again, the Dura-Ace versions never had any such problem and are rock-solid, though these require the 1st-position cog with a reduced threaded diameter.

Later 600 freehubs, including some that were still 6-speed Uniglide-only, used the reliable hollow bolt and are easily identified by the bulge at the driveside of the hubshell center.

Lastly, one could use 6-speed spacers on the Odom hubs with a full count of seven UG cogs, for perhaps the very best in friction-shifting performance, i.e. a most "slap-happy" (forgiving) shifting action at the lever, not that eight cogs with 8s spacers wouldn't shift nearly as well using 9s chain.

likebike23

Leica lad was trying to fit 6 cogs on a 5 speed UG freehub body with 7 speed spacers, but it was too wide and hanging off. I thought that maybe a lockring instead of the threaded cog would be more narrow. I hadn't considered the possibility that it wouldn't be secure enough and never tested my idea. I came up with the idea of a lockring to secure maybe 6 of 8 cogs from an 8 speed cassette on the UG freehub because UG cassettes are not easy to find.

The threaded cogs seem to be the ones that wear out the most and they have the same threads as a bottom bracket lockring. I've thought a little on it, and this info could be valuable to anyone who wants to hang onto UG wheels and have replacement cassette options. If someone wanted to make their own cassette they could file the large splines from 7 or 8 speed cassette cogs and use the worn UG cassette spacers. To secure the cogs they could use a BB lockring or perhaps a use a 14 tooth track cog, which also has the same threads, as their high gear. I haven't done it yet as I haven't had to, so at this point it's just an idea.

Wheels Of Steel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlAr0M05wI

Curtis Odom 

Jan charges less than 1/2 what mine cost, I don't think he is gouging.
As far as his red end caps go he is paying homage to the French Maxi-Car hubs. My newest model of hub yet to be shown will have red and green (port and starboard) thread in dust caps, only these are functional as they are also directional. The wheel must be mounted correctly for the seals to work.

icepick_trotsky 

I like how this thread started out as someone complaining about boutique component prices and morphed into a really informative discussion on some really creative ideas.

Wheels Of Steel

I like how many continue to interpret my initial post as a complaint.

LeicaLad 

Well, I saw the thread primarily in homage to the boutique options. Jewelry, for those inclined.

Down here in the trenches, I'll just post the next stage of my 5-speed freehub to 6-speed adjustment through the use of 9-speed spacers.

Here is the mounted wheel version of the hub shown above, a Shimano EX (a proper freehub with retaining bolt, etc.). The cassette on the hub was an original 600 EX 5-speed cassette. I replaced the 5-6 speed spacers with four (4) 9-speed spacers. I was prepared to use a proper 7-8s threaded cog, but on close inspection, the original was actually a tiny RCH factor thinner! Who knew?

Anyway, this is what 6-speed looks like on this 5-speed freehub. The original was 13-15-19-23-28. I merely added a 17t in there for a more pleasant mid-range.



On the stand, the 8-speed SRAM chain seems to be fine. I'll need to road test it to see if I need to swap in a 9-speed chain.

I worry about the 9-speed chain on my Stronglight 93 chainrings. . .