CO_Hoya 

Originally posted in the eBay thread.

What is this? I'm getting a Raleigh/Carlton vibe, but you guys know a heck of a lot more than me.

Lugs seem unique enough that someone here would be able to ID it.


CAMPAGNOLO - $300 (link)







Late 70s CAMPAGNOLO 10 SPEED rides great

lord_athlon

Looks like its well worth the 300. Im getting a british vibe. The seatstay treatment looks familiar. Maybe an early Carlton professional? Flyer?

Sixty Fiver

It has been re-painted at some point, the seat stay wrap and fork crown are typical of Carlton built bicycles and the lugwork points to it being 60's manufacture.

If you can inspect the bike in person bring a set of calipers, the seat post should be 27.2 if it is a Reynold's 531 frame and as such it should feel rather light (21-22 pounds).

CO_Hoya 

I'm at n+2 right now, so I really don't need another bike.

And, it looks too small for me.



I sent a message to the seller (sigh).

dddd

Those are the Capella lugs, as used by Raleigh (and possibly Carlton I'd guess).

Also referred to as "Mosquito" lugs I think, for the headtube lug's spear and "eyes".

Similar lugwork I've seen has been from around 1972-3 iir.

I had a gold Raleigh Supercourse with those lugs, which I found at night next to a dumpster.
It was weathered, but rode like a touring model should iir.

TimmyT 

+1

Mainly used in 1973-74, but showed up on Raleighs in 1972 and probably 1975. They were used on the International, Competition, and Super Course. The rear dropout is forged, so the frame is an International, Competition, or a Carlton-Carlton model. It is not a Super Course. If it's an International, the fork crown and head lugs would be chromed under the repaint, and it would have Campagnolo dropouts. If it is a Competition, it would have Zeus or Huret dropouts, but there was enough variability that it could have something else. Internationals came with an NR group, consistent with what is on there now.

It has a Wagner fork crown, which likely means the fork is original as those were used through the mid 70s.

I'm guessing it's a 1972 International with a bad repaint, but it could be a Competition.

EDIT: In my view, if it's an international, it's definitely worth the $300. If it's a Competition, it could be worth the $300, but that is really up to the buyer.

lord_athlon

I thought it was an international once I saw the cable stop on the stays.

lostarchitect 

Competitions had that too, at that time.

I had a similar frame that was repainted, and I never could decide with 100% certainty what it was. Raleigh serials at that time were hard to place as well. Everything TimmyT says above is correct. I would add that some of these frames had a 27.0 seatpost--per Sheldon Brown and the fact that mine had one!

3alarmer 

...+2 to the above two posts. Capella lugs are pretty easy to distinguish, once you've seen them,
and were only used for a brief period in the Raleigh bikes with 531 frames. if you do a Google
search using that as you term, you'll probably get the years they were in use.

Also +1 on the drops to rule out Super Course.

Here's what a competition with Capella lugs looks like in original paint.



International should have slacker angles, but it is very difficult to judge the difference without a side by side, in person comparison.



As you can see from these photos, the Comp looks like it's the more relaxed of the two here, which are from different years.





Price, especially on a repaint, varies from place to place and seasonally, and Comps go here in NorCal in the original
paint for $350-$500. In any event.it ought to be a nice riding bike, in that Reynolds 531 class of ride feel.


finally, and with some sadness, +1 on the quality of the repaint. Lotsa work required to remedy that.

muzpuf

1960's Three-Part Carlton Capella lugs

3alarmer 

...The Campy stuff goes more toward International. A few of the Comps were specced Campy,
but IIRC, the Capella lugged ones did not come with Campagnolo componentry.

TimmyT 

FTFY. I've never heard them called Three-Part. I have heard them called cock-and-balls and bird's eye. If you are referring to the classic Carlton Bird-mouth or simply "Carlton" lugs that are also three part, then no. These are not those.
The 3-pin Campy Competitions had nervex lugs later in the 1970s, like 1975 to 1979. Others here, like Lostarchitect, have owned one those, so I'll defer to them.

lostarchitect 

That was the GS model, '77 to '81-ish. I had a '79. I kinda regret selling it, but I can't really have more than 3 bikes at a time in my present apartment! I think the lugs were Bocama, though, not Nervex. Really smooth riding bike. The GS model had steeper geometry than the early models did.

David Newton

Somebody buy that, strip the campy parts to keep or sell, and sell me the frame, fork, headset & bb, ship it here, and I'll "like" your facebook page every day.

jacksbike

Looks to me it is what used to be a Raleigh International, as many above have theorized. Pretty terrible what a can of spray paint has done to a once beautiful bike.

rhm

Carlton Capella lugs were introduced around 1959 or 60, the exact date is to be found on the Carlton Cycles website. They offered a couple bikes with those lugs in the early sixties; I think forum member Grand Bois has one of those.

After Raleigh took over Carlton they stopped using those lugs until 1973 when I guess they decided to clean out the inventory for good. Maybe someone found a missing shipment. Anyway, sorry Tim, but they really are from the sixties if not earlier, and their use in 1973 was an anachronism.

You can still find them on EBay occasionally.

Bandera

Looks like a really beat '70-73 International, Campy dropouts would be evidence.
If it's straight it's recoverable if one has the $$$.

-Bandera

TimmyT 

Well, I stand corrected. 1958 it was: https://www.carltoncycles.me.uk/details/lugwork-p.htm

My apologies, muzpuf.

At least two years and three models worth of lugs is a lot of lugs to have lying around, though. It is possible, I guess, but it seems like a lot.

auchencrow

Two holes (Carlton-Carlton) - or three (Raleigh-Carlton), for mounting the headbadge?

Grand Bois

I have a Carlton with a '59 serial number with chrome Capellas. I also have a '73 Raleigh Competition. They all had Capella lugs that year. Carlton did a much nicer job on them before the Raleigh takeover in 1960.

CO_Hoya 

So I had a look at the bike tonight.

It is definitely an International. Headset, BB, brakes, brake levers, cranks and derailleurs are original, the rest has been swapped out. There are three holes on the head tube where the badge used to be, rear dropout was a Campy. Looked like a 22.5" frame (I didn't bother to measure).

The paint - and I almost hesitate to call it paint - is a flat color and just glopped on. I think my 6-year old sons could do a better job painting a bike. All I can figure is that the bike had been stolen at some point (probably not by the seller) or, more likely, was intentionally painted that way to hide it's value, as in for a commuter in a high-crime area.

I didn't look too hard, but I didn't see much evidence of rust in the bits that weren't encrusted in paint. Seat post came right out, derailleurs looked pretty good.

Thanks for all the good info. I encouraged the seller to update his ad, looks like he did.

lord_athlon

Why did you pass on it out of curiosity?

CO_Hoya 

Not my size, and I need to get rid of a couple of bikes before I can take on another project.

I'd guess at least $300 to do a quality restore of the paint and decals. No way to check the chrome without stripping the bike. I'd say it would have been a break-even at best restore.

if it was a 23.5" or 24.5" frame, I'd have considered making him an offer. After looking a bit harder at the frame.

auchencrow

I'd wager that is a 23-1/2" frame based on the head tube proportion.

rootboy 

Someone was trying to make a Desert Storm bike. But that paint looks more like baby poop to me. Terrible color.