Assistance for Newbs: post your pics of varying quality levels of bike-related stuff
#51
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One additional thing/request...in the two Campy derailleur pics...WHY is one better than the other...not just a picture of which one is which...that would be VERY helpful!
#53
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First, I am pointing out what was top tier and what was second tier in the 1950s.
Second, in terms of collecting, it doesn't really matter what a n00b wants, ****ty or not, it should hold your interest.
Third, "rarity" has nothing to do with "collectible".
Forth, context matters as second tier was likely top tier a few years back.
Need me to clear it up some more?
Second, in terms of collecting, it doesn't really matter what a n00b wants, ****ty or not, it should hold your interest.
Third, "rarity" has nothing to do with "collectible".
Forth, context matters as second tier was likely top tier a few years back.
Need me to clear it up some more?
Read the original post.
Here is the thread this is spawned from.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-on-Craigslist?
Here are the quotes from that thread:
Knowing that a 4130 CrMo frame would be preferable to Mangalloy or 1020 HiTen would be valuable.
Generally knowing that unmarked, chromed components are generally not "quality."
Knowing that the presence of lugs doesn't mean it's a good frame.
Knowing the names of Huffy, Murray, Columbia... names you may know, but don't necessarily mean quality bicycles. (now watch someone pass up a $25 Serrota built "Huffy")
I'm asking what your posts have to do with that.
As an aside- relative "rarity" does have an effect on collectability.
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#54
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Read the title of the thread. "Assistance for Newbs: post your pics of varying quality levels of bike-related stuff"
Read the original post.
Here is the thread this is spawned from.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-on-Craigslist?
Here are the quotes from that thread:
I'm asking what your posts have to do with that.
As an aside- relative "rarity" does have an effect on collectability.
Read the original post.
Here is the thread this is spawned from.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-on-Craigslist?
Here are the quotes from that thread:
I'm asking what your posts have to do with that.
As an aside- relative "rarity" does have an effect on collectability.
How about we just get information flowing...all newbies will make mistakes in what they buy...it is called learning...and...no expert is perfect...y'all made your mistakes as well.
Now...on this thread...how about some more great pics of what is good, not so good and bad?
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That's a valid request, and not that I can answer it as I have no experience with the Sport gear. But from what I've read, it was a poor performer mainly due to having only one jockey wheel. Others can add better detail, I'm sure. A lot about the various performance attributes of rear derailleurs can be learned by reading Frank Berto's excellent book The Dancing Chain. Well worth the investment.
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sorry, i thought it was obvious.
my post is another take on the theme. the first pic looks like rusted junk. the second pic shows that after meticulously overhauling everything, one can turn junk into a $400 bike. but not only is it more valuable and infinitely more beautiful, it's perfectly adjusted, efficient, quiet and feels 'new.'
sometimes it's not about elite componentry, but about being perfectly sized, adjusted, and built.
also, shimano 600 groups from this period are badass. i especially love the headsets.
my post is another take on the theme. the first pic looks like rusted junk. the second pic shows that after meticulously overhauling everything, one can turn junk into a $400 bike. but not only is it more valuable and infinitely more beautiful, it's perfectly adjusted, efficient, quiet and feels 'new.'
sometimes it's not about elite componentry, but about being perfectly sized, adjusted, and built.
also, shimano 600 groups from this period are badass. i especially love the headsets.
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A clue to much of the problem can be read in this sentence. What is "good" and "bad" is largely based on subjective opinions. Not all of it of course, but any time you try to judge things by putting them in one specific category or another, you're going to get an argument started. Some folks believe their opinions are more valuable than others' , based on their experience, I guess. Experience does matter. And knowledge is power, as they say. Any thread that calls for a judgement call on a piece of gear or item is subject to this phenomena. Not pretty sometimes, but that's the way it is.
#58
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On the one hand this thread is in the C&V sub-forum so might be intended for "newbie" collectors; on the other hand, the thread that inspired it seemed to have more to do with choosing among available used bikes for a suitable riding machine.
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Best:
Better:
Better:
#61
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Looked for a pic but couldn't find it on my Flickr account. I know I have one of a Helicomatic!
How about another "Best" hub?
How about another "Best" hub?
Last edited by SJX426; 01-13-14 at 09:44 AM.
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I don't have pics of my worn out cheap tools.
Several birthdays ago I received a harbor freight bicycle tool kit. The only tools that I still have from that set are a chain whip....a pedal wrench (barely).....and a a square drive for a crank puller. All the cone wrenches. Allen wrenches, screw drivers, etc have crapped out. Assuming it was 40 bucks or so; that same money would purchased the tools that remain (better brands though) and a complete set of quality cone wrenches.
Cone wrenches are specifically designed for bicycle wheels. They are used to disassemble, reassemble and adjust the wheel bearings. There is no substitute. They must be thin and very strong. A 40 year old bicycle wheel that's never been serviced can be brutal on cheap cone wrenches. Once you've crashed your knuckles into the spokes becAuse your bargain wrench slipped, you'll know I'm right.
givens........buy a Park chain tool.....buy bike quality cone wrenches........buy a quality cable cutter.....if you think you need to use a pair of vise grips or an adjustable wrench; you need to buy a tool of some type.....there is no substitute for a REAL spoke wrench.....
lets talk about WD-40 now...........
Several birthdays ago I received a harbor freight bicycle tool kit. The only tools that I still have from that set are a chain whip....a pedal wrench (barely).....and a a square drive for a crank puller. All the cone wrenches. Allen wrenches, screw drivers, etc have crapped out. Assuming it was 40 bucks or so; that same money would purchased the tools that remain (better brands though) and a complete set of quality cone wrenches.
Cone wrenches are specifically designed for bicycle wheels. They are used to disassemble, reassemble and adjust the wheel bearings. There is no substitute. They must be thin and very strong. A 40 year old bicycle wheel that's never been serviced can be brutal on cheap cone wrenches. Once you've crashed your knuckles into the spokes becAuse your bargain wrench slipped, you'll know I'm right.
givens........buy a Park chain tool.....buy bike quality cone wrenches........buy a quality cable cutter.....if you think you need to use a pair of vise grips or an adjustable wrench; you need to buy a tool of some type.....there is no substitute for a REAL spoke wrench.....
lets talk about WD-40 now...........
#63
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Bad lug work (again, apologies to Randy):
Good lug work - Spectrum Cycles
Cherubim (Konno brothers in Akasaka):
Tommasini:
Not quite as nice as the above, but still excellent fit/finish. Trek-Wisconsin/Japan fastback stay lug:
Bridgestone NJS Keirin bike frame detail (seat tube):
Good lug work - Spectrum Cycles
Cherubim (Konno brothers in Akasaka):
Tommasini:
Not quite as nice as the above, but still excellent fit/finish. Trek-Wisconsin/Japan fastback stay lug:
Bridgestone NJS Keirin bike frame detail (seat tube):
This is a great post. Many of the other posting in this thread have put up "good" "bad" pics with no explanation at all. This one really shows what good and bad mean.
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#64
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.... or Kroil!
For freeing up parts. Heat or cold (Freeze Off) always can help, if used appropriately, in combination of the following:
Worst - no lubrication, just brute force.
OK - oil of any kind
Better - Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster,
Best - Kroil
For freeing up parts. Heat or cold (Freeze Off) always can help, if used appropriately, in combination of the following:
Worst - no lubrication, just brute force.
OK - oil of any kind
Better - Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster,
Best - Kroil
Last edited by SJX426; 01-13-14 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Rootboy induced correction!
#65
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Rootboy will appreciate this:
Good detail of paint:
Goodness in chrome, though others can show better:
Good detail of paint:
Goodness in chrome, though others can show better:
#66
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Seems only fair that if you're going to identify the Peugeot as an example of poor lug work, you identify the second example as a Raleigh. Or are you a Francophobe/Anglophile?
Bad lug work (again, apologies to Randy):
Good lug work - Spectrum Cycles
Cherubim (Konno brothers in Akasaka):
Tommasini:
Not quite as nice as the above, but still excellent fit/finish. Trek-Wisconsin/Japan fastback stay lug:
Bridgestone NJS Keirin bike frame detail (seat tube):
Good lug work - Spectrum Cycles
Cherubim (Konno brothers in Akasaka):
Tommasini:
Not quite as nice as the above, but still excellent fit/finish. Trek-Wisconsin/Japan fastback stay lug:
Bridgestone NJS Keirin bike frame detail (seat tube):
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#67
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Nice bottom bracket (after filing the parting line out):
Nicer bottom bracket even with the "Patina" and mis-aligned wheel!:
Nicer bottom bracket even with the "Patina" and mis-aligned wheel!:
#68
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Nice brake bridge:
Acceptable brake bridge:
Should I quit? How about seat stay bridges and crowns and an example of thin vs thick lugs?
Acceptable brake bridge:
Should I quit? How about seat stay bridges and crowns and an example of thin vs thick lugs?
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Oo la la. Nice indeed. Some might look at that and see only a production bike. But I like the details on these bikes.
I might add to you parts breaker list, in the "best" category…. Freeze Off. I think that stuff works incredibly well in most circumstances.
I might add to you parts breaker list, in the "best" category…. Freeze Off. I think that stuff works incredibly well in most circumstances.
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I hope that any noobs who are still with us here will understand that, in some cases, we are dealing with aesthetics here. The brake bridges and bottom brackets above are good examples. All the example shown are perfectly serviceable; but many of us prefer the aesthetics and additional work put into the "better" examples.
Same goes for the much-quoted lugwork examples. Much more work and attention to detail went into the "good" examples but that doesn't mean that the "bad" examples are going to fail. Those small gaps under the lugs, while ugly to many of us, make up only a tiny percentage of the brazed surface. Indeed, the two bikes shown appear to have been ridden quite a bit with no failure of the joints. This sort of flaw is indicative of shoddy workmanship and hurried assembly but seldom means that the bike is going to fall apart.
Brent
Same goes for the much-quoted lugwork examples. Much more work and attention to detail went into the "good" examples but that doesn't mean that the "bad" examples are going to fail. Those small gaps under the lugs, while ugly to many of us, make up only a tiny percentage of the brazed surface. Indeed, the two bikes shown appear to have been ridden quite a bit with no failure of the joints. This sort of flaw is indicative of shoddy workmanship and hurried assembly but seldom means that the bike is going to fall apart.
Brent
#71
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I'm a newbie here, and at this point have no interest at all in collecting. I am, however, interested in vintage cycles for the following reasons:
It's a great way to oppose and, at the same time, benefit from our throw away, newer is better culture
It's cost effective. Older technology and materials are, for most folk, as good as new, but at a 70%+ cost savings
Vintage bikes are very "tinkerable". Older components are very simple to take apart, fix, clean and put back together
Subjectively speaking, I prefer the classic looks of older bikes
I'm not saying by any means that posters to this sub forum are right or wrong, just that some basic knowledge, which newbies won't necessarily have, is required to understand what's aimed at collectors and what's aimed at riders (recognizing, of course, that there is always crossover).
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#72
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I hope that any noobs who are still with us here will understand that, in some cases, we are dealing with aesthetics here. The brake bridges and bottom brackets above are good examples. All the example shown are perfectly serviceable; but many of us prefer the aesthetics and additional work put into the "better" examples.
Same goes for the much-quoted lugwork examples. Much more work and attention to detail went into the "good" examples but that doesn't mean that the "bad" examples are going to fail. Those small gaps under the lugs, while ugly to many of us, make up only a tiny percentage of the brazed surface. Indeed, the two bikes shown appear to have been ridden quite a bit with no failure of the joints. This sort of flaw is indicative of shoddy workmanship and hurried assembly but seldom means that the bike is going to fall apart.
Brent
Same goes for the much-quoted lugwork examples. Much more work and attention to detail went into the "good" examples but that doesn't mean that the "bad" examples are going to fail. Those small gaps under the lugs, while ugly to many of us, make up only a tiny percentage of the brazed surface. Indeed, the two bikes shown appear to have been ridden quite a bit with no failure of the joints. This sort of flaw is indicative of shoddy workmanship and hurried assembly but seldom means that the bike is going to fall apart.
Brent
The glue that holds a lugged frame together is brass or silver and you cannot see it from the outside... the best looking lugs may very conceal joints that are poorly filled while a lot of mass produced frames with plainer or less elegant lugs are well built.
Many plainer looking Japanese made frames are better built than their European counterparts.. Bianchi is a good example of this as they outsourced a good deal of production to Japan for their second tier bicycles which tend to be very well made.
The Wisconsin built Treks tend to be as good as a frame gets... they made the Italians up their game and were on par with their Japanese counterparts.
As for the Japanese... it has been said that Miyata never built a bad bicycle, their QC was exceptional.
#73
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I wanted to thank you all for this thread. I have wandered into the CL thread and just felt overwhelmed. I am by no means a collector, nor do I want to be, but there is an allure to older roadies and MTB that draws me in.
This thread has given me some great information and tips for what to look for when shopping.
I will say there are plenty of bikes and projects that I am kinda like "Meh..." to, not because I don't think something is not vintage or collectable enough, but because it doesn't appeal to me. After building an older drop-bar MTB I am now looking at making a skinny tire gravel grinder, and think I might have found a frame that will work. And look cool, but this thread will cause me to look in depth at it before buying it.
And the arguments, without flaming each other, I think add a tad bit when done diplomatically. It gives me a new perspective on what to spend my money on AND gives me something else to eyeball which only aides in helping me make a decision for a project bike.
This thread has given me some great information and tips for what to look for when shopping.
I will say there are plenty of bikes and projects that I am kinda like "Meh..." to, not because I don't think something is not vintage or collectable enough, but because it doesn't appeal to me. After building an older drop-bar MTB I am now looking at making a skinny tire gravel grinder, and think I might have found a frame that will work. And look cool, but this thread will cause me to look in depth at it before buying it.
And the arguments, without flaming each other, I think add a tad bit when done diplomatically. It gives me a new perspective on what to spend my money on AND gives me something else to eyeball which only aides in helping me make a decision for a project bike.
#74
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I can understand that to a point- however, this thread spawned from a thread where a guy was going to drop $100 on a "not so good" Huffy. He thought it was worth it, probably because it was "vintage" and relatively clean. I'm all for being proud of what you've got- but you should have a realistic concept of what you've got.
#75
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My apologies to DD for sort of derailing his thread. I felt bad about saying that here comes the old "high end" speech versus the "low-end, POS, craptastic, gas-pipe" and other unnecessary terms when describing "ordinary", no make that "safety" bicycles. I will endeavor not to be rude and impolite again.
Even the old "good, better, best" marketing scheme is more palatable than, "garbage, barely acceptable, finest".
But I did say it, because BF is a part of my day that I very much enjoy and lately I have sensed a lot less enthusiasum and more bashing of the "bikes we grew up with" and their monetary value. Even to the point of sometimes being rude and snarky. Like DD himself said to me, "life's too short"
This forum needs everyone's opinion and their mutual respect and I hope DD can see my position as well.
Every post should have a picture or two.
Not every paint crack will mean permanent damage.
This Raleigh Record Mixte was likely crashed at some point and the paint cracked on the downtube. Otherwise the frame is undamaged and straight. Because it is Hi Ten 2030 (carbon steel) and tough as nails, its just fine under the paint and there is no other distortion. Back in the day, this bike was sold in a well respected Toronto bike shop. Don't know if it still exists.
This 1976 Mixte is being built as a 5 speed upright "townie" with rack and fenders and will hopefully find a home with one of the nice young ladies in our family.
Even the old "good, better, best" marketing scheme is more palatable than, "garbage, barely acceptable, finest".
But I did say it, because BF is a part of my day that I very much enjoy and lately I have sensed a lot less enthusiasum and more bashing of the "bikes we grew up with" and their monetary value. Even to the point of sometimes being rude and snarky. Like DD himself said to me, "life's too short"
This forum needs everyone's opinion and their mutual respect and I hope DD can see my position as well.
Every post should have a picture or two.
Not every paint crack will mean permanent damage.
This Raleigh Record Mixte was likely crashed at some point and the paint cracked on the downtube. Otherwise the frame is undamaged and straight. Because it is Hi Ten 2030 (carbon steel) and tough as nails, its just fine under the paint and there is no other distortion. Back in the day, this bike was sold in a well respected Toronto bike shop. Don't know if it still exists.
This 1976 Mixte is being built as a 5 speed upright "townie" with rack and fenders and will hopefully find a home with one of the nice young ladies in our family.
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