Allvit advice needed
#1
Bad example
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 3,067
Bikes: Peugeot: AO-8 1973, PA-10 1971, PR-10 1973, Sante 1988; Masi Gran Criterium 1975, Stevenson Tourer 1980, Stevenson Criterium 1981, Schwinn Paramount 1972, Rodriguez 2006, Gitane Federal ~1975, Holdsworth Pro, Follis 172 ~1973, Bianchi '62
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 825 Post(s)
Liked 209 Times
in
96 Posts
Allvit advice needed
My old Motobécane Mirage has an Allvit rear derailleur. I hope to keep this bike as original as possible (although I probably will replace the stem shifters with Barcons) so I want to use the Allvit if possible. The derailleur is very clean and unworn, but it got very gummed up from sitting for decades. I sprayed it with a penetrating lubricant, loosened some of the pivot bolts, and worked it back and forth for quite a while until it worked freely. So far, so good.
The issue I now have, though, is that iam concerned that by loosening the pivot bolts and lubricating everything, the pivot bolts and nuts will have a tendency to become loose. I figure I should remove the nuts, clean the threads well, and loctite them. Am I right? Any advice?
The issue I now have, though, is that iam concerned that by loosening the pivot bolts and lubricating everything, the pivot bolts and nuts will have a tendency to become loose. I figure I should remove the nuts, clean the threads well, and loctite them. Am I right? Any advice?
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
#2
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,193
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1565 Post(s)
Liked 1,295 Times
in
865 Posts
There are a couple of issues with re-adjusting the pivots on these derailers!
Firstly, it's a challenge to find the right wrench for all of the nuts and bolt heads. What works on one will have clearance issues on another, and you have to be able to get all of them adjusted properly. Very common for one pivot to cause the derailer to fail to retract fully toward the dropout, and it's difficult to identify which one it is!
I had to do a sequence of tests by first loosening all pivots slightly, then setting cable tension to JUST allow shifting to the smallest cog.
Then, I secured each pivot's adjustment, testing each adjustment independently to verify it was as tight as it could be without causing any resistance to retracting to the smallest-cog position.
If the locknuts are torqued properly using practiced workshop skills, then no threadlocker products are needed to keep the nuts tight. These derailers were state-of-the-art in the late 50's and 60's, and were successfully raced in many professional racing events and championships, so are a reliable piece of gear if kept in a proper state of lubrication and adjustment.
They can be challenged by modern chain's flexibility, since most vintage derailers feature abundant "chain gap" near the smaller cogs, but unless one pushes for use of a 6-speed freewheel (with modifications as shown below), they should handle 5s freewheels with ease if the freewheel is positioned within a proper distance range from the dropout.
The return spring on these is fairly stiff, so keeping the cables and shift lever pivot working smoothly (lined cable housing, appropriate ferrules, oiled lever pivot) should make for quite-decent shifting performance.
Firstly, it's a challenge to find the right wrench for all of the nuts and bolt heads. What works on one will have clearance issues on another, and you have to be able to get all of them adjusted properly. Very common for one pivot to cause the derailer to fail to retract fully toward the dropout, and it's difficult to identify which one it is!
I had to do a sequence of tests by first loosening all pivots slightly, then setting cable tension to JUST allow shifting to the smallest cog.
Then, I secured each pivot's adjustment, testing each adjustment independently to verify it was as tight as it could be without causing any resistance to retracting to the smallest-cog position.
If the locknuts are torqued properly using practiced workshop skills, then no threadlocker products are needed to keep the nuts tight. These derailers were state-of-the-art in the late 50's and 60's, and were successfully raced in many professional racing events and championships, so are a reliable piece of gear if kept in a proper state of lubrication and adjustment.
They can be challenged by modern chain's flexibility, since most vintage derailers feature abundant "chain gap" near the smaller cogs, but unless one pushes for use of a 6-speed freewheel (with modifications as shown below), they should handle 5s freewheels with ease if the freewheel is positioned within a proper distance range from the dropout.
The return spring on these is fairly stiff, so keeping the cables and shift lever pivot working smoothly (lined cable housing, appropriate ferrules, oiled lever pivot) should make for quite-decent shifting performance.
#4
Seńor Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,923
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1491 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
638 Posts
I find they are quite functional doorstops, but just a bit light to properly serve as anchors.
I don't blame you for trying to maintain originality, but I recommend the advice of the much-more-patient-than-I dddd, as my record with these is abysmal.
I don't blame you for trying to maintain originality, but I recommend the advice of the much-more-patient-than-I dddd, as my record with these is abysmal.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
#5
Bad example
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 3,067
Bikes: Peugeot: AO-8 1973, PA-10 1971, PR-10 1973, Sante 1988; Masi Gran Criterium 1975, Stevenson Tourer 1980, Stevenson Criterium 1981, Schwinn Paramount 1972, Rodriguez 2006, Gitane Federal ~1975, Holdsworth Pro, Follis 172 ~1973, Bianchi '62
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 825 Post(s)
Liked 209 Times
in
96 Posts
This is the bike as bought. I removed the Seattle Bike License and bike shop stickers, but otherwise did not change a thing.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
#6
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26418 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
There are a couple of issues with re-adjusting the pivots on these derailers!
Firstly, it's a challenge to find the right wrench for all of the nuts and bolt heads. What works on one will have clearance issues on another, and you have to be able to get all of them adjusted properly. Very common for one pivot to cause the derailer to fail to retract fully toward the dropout, and it's difficult to identify which one it is!
I had to do a sequence of tests by first loosening all pivots slightly, then setting cable tension to JUST allow shifting to the smallest cog.
Then, I secured each pivot's adjustment, testing each adjustment independently to verify it was as tight as it could be without causing any resistance to retracting to the smallest-cog position.
If the locknuts are torqued properly using practiced workshop skills, then no threadlocker products are needed to keep the nuts tight. These derailers were state-of-the-art in the late 50's and 60's, and were successfully raced in many professional racing events and championships, so are a reliable piece of gear if kept in a proper state of lubrication and adjustment.
They can be challenged by modern chain's flexibility, since most vintage derailers feature abundant "chain gap" near the smaller cogs, but unless one pushes for use of a 6-speed freewheel (with modifications as shown below), they should handle 5s freewheels with ease if the freewheel is positioned within a proper distance range from the dropout.
The return spring on these is fairly stiff, so keeping the cables and shift lever pivot working smoothly (lined cable housing, appropriate ferrules, oiled lever pivot) should make for quite-decent shifting performance.
Firstly, it's a challenge to find the right wrench for all of the nuts and bolt heads. What works on one will have clearance issues on another, and you have to be able to get all of them adjusted properly. Very common for one pivot to cause the derailer to fail to retract fully toward the dropout, and it's difficult to identify which one it is!
I had to do a sequence of tests by first loosening all pivots slightly, then setting cable tension to JUST allow shifting to the smallest cog.
Then, I secured each pivot's adjustment, testing each adjustment independently to verify it was as tight as it could be without causing any resistance to retracting to the smallest-cog position.
If the locknuts are torqued properly using practiced workshop skills, then no threadlocker products are needed to keep the nuts tight. These derailers were state-of-the-art in the late 50's and 60's, and were successfully raced in many professional racing events and championships, so are a reliable piece of gear if kept in a proper state of lubrication and adjustment.
They can be challenged by modern chain's flexibility, since most vintage derailers feature abundant "chain gap" near the smaller cogs, but unless one pushes for use of a 6-speed freewheel (with modifications as shown below), they should handle 5s freewheels with ease if the freewheel is positioned within a proper distance range from the dropout.
The return spring on these is fairly stiff, so keeping the cables and shift lever pivot working smoothly (lined cable housing, appropriate ferrules, oiled lever pivot) should make for quite-decent shifting performance.
I can't imagine you'll have trouble keeping it going, because Schwinn put so many of the "Schwinn approved" ones into the used parts stream.
#7
Senior Member
I like Allvit derailleurs. IMO they've been unfairly maligned. Allvits work just fine if properly adjusted and maintained. I think the doorstop reputation started during the bike boom era. Many were never properly adjusted to start, quickly became clogged with dirt, and finally more often had bent in RD hangers. Flopping your bike over on the drive side was once common practice for the generation that had grown up with one speed coaster brake bikes, or maybe 3 speeds. Once the drivetrain components are all cleaned and lube, and the jockey cage points in the right direction, the shifting is as good as most derailleurs of the era.
#8
Shifting is fun!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,006
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2198 Post(s)
Liked 4,600 Times
in
1,764 Posts
The ones I have didn't need much more than a damp rag and a few drops of light oil to function as intended, i.e. shifting a 14-28 5-cog FW with a satisfying clunk and being able to handle a rather surprising (and welcome, I might add) amount of chain wrap.
I built a bike for mrs non-fixie with an Allvit, and ended up quite jealous. So I built another one with an Allvit for myself. We took both bikes to the Retroronde, Eroica Britannia and a week of touring in between last year and they performed flawlessly.
What I really enjoy is riding behind a bike with an Allvit and seeing the mechanism in action. Call me a hopeless romantic, but for me C&V doesn't get much better than that.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,317
Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times
in
313 Posts
Thanks, guys. I am not usually one for originality but this old Mirage is really a museum piece and I wanted to see if I could use it as is, at least on sunny days. And @dddd, thanks for reporting your experiences! Mine was shifting fine through the higher five gears but would get stuck on the lowest rear cog. I had to get off the bike and push the derailleur to get it to shift higher. It seems to be fine now!
This is the bike as bought. I removed the Seattle Bike License and bike shop stickers, but otherwise did not change a thing.
#10
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,193
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1565 Post(s)
Liked 1,295 Times
in
865 Posts
The Allvit took parallelogram derailer development literally 180 degrees in one swoop by completely inverting the parallelogram, pivoting from a stationary bottom location instead of from the top.
The result was that the upper guide pulley now tracked even the steep contour of larger freewheels, preserving a more-uniform chain gap distance between the top pulley and the cog that the chain was running on.
Even better, the top pulley moved through an arc which matched the slightly-concave cone profile of the most popular "alpine" freewheel sizes (typically 14-26t, 15-26t or 14-28t) used by touring bikes, sport-touring bikes and the new wave of price-point "ten-speeds" that started flowing into the U.S. around 1960.
Later parallelogram derailers from Shimano and Simplex would modestly approach the inverted Allvit arrangement using a "drop-down knuckle" at the derailer's mounting point, but they likely were still constrained by Huret's patents. Also, the Allvit's fully-inverted parallelogram (with it's super-long upper knuckle) left the dropout hanger more vulnerable to bending in the event of impact, due to the added leverage. Salamandrine has it right about this derailer's added vulnerability to the bike being "flopped on it's driveside", though I have found it easy in practice to grab the Allvit and pull it outward with bare or gloved hands as an added parameter of "roadside adjustment"!
The Allvit was named (translated) "all speeds", which referred to it's ability to handle 3, 4, or 5-speed freewheels of the late 1950's.
Getting one to shift across even an Ultra-6 (narrow) 6-speed freewheel requires a most precise lateral positioning of the freewheel relative to the driveside dropout (but again, one can yank on the Allvit at roadside to "fine-tune" it's position below the freewheel!).
I've had good results using standard Shimano Uniglide 6-speed freewheels with several Allvit derailers, but each took time and effort to diagnose and modify the derailer's travel-limiting mechanical dimensions within the body and parallelogram. Different versions (including Schwinn-Approved) require different parts to be ground down here and there, with paper shims and wet paint used to identify the exact sources of interference (and which made for some "sporting" efforts in the workshop!).
One top-shelf custom bike builder in Japan apparently was so enamored of the Allvit's particular "knee-action" movement that he modified one for dual cables leading to the right shift lever so as to eliminate the stiff spring force (and it's requirement of a heavily-tightened shift-lever friction adjustment).
Of obscure note is one Japanese "copy" of the Allvit, the Sugino VIC derailer. It employed a similar, huge, chrome-plated drop-down knuckle with the slanted parallelogram invented by Suntour. It was part of an indexed 7-speed system (with thumb shifters) and is perhaps the heaviest rear derailer ever made(?). But it's robust construction did not cover for it's relatively-exposed and delicate adjustment screws, which made it and it's front mate a poor off-road derailer set.
See photo at:
https://www.bikestash.com/images/rear...ur_640_480.jpg
The result was that the upper guide pulley now tracked even the steep contour of larger freewheels, preserving a more-uniform chain gap distance between the top pulley and the cog that the chain was running on.
Even better, the top pulley moved through an arc which matched the slightly-concave cone profile of the most popular "alpine" freewheel sizes (typically 14-26t, 15-26t or 14-28t) used by touring bikes, sport-touring bikes and the new wave of price-point "ten-speeds" that started flowing into the U.S. around 1960.
Later parallelogram derailers from Shimano and Simplex would modestly approach the inverted Allvit arrangement using a "drop-down knuckle" at the derailer's mounting point, but they likely were still constrained by Huret's patents. Also, the Allvit's fully-inverted parallelogram (with it's super-long upper knuckle) left the dropout hanger more vulnerable to bending in the event of impact, due to the added leverage. Salamandrine has it right about this derailer's added vulnerability to the bike being "flopped on it's driveside", though I have found it easy in practice to grab the Allvit and pull it outward with bare or gloved hands as an added parameter of "roadside adjustment"!
The Allvit was named (translated) "all speeds", which referred to it's ability to handle 3, 4, or 5-speed freewheels of the late 1950's.
Getting one to shift across even an Ultra-6 (narrow) 6-speed freewheel requires a most precise lateral positioning of the freewheel relative to the driveside dropout (but again, one can yank on the Allvit at roadside to "fine-tune" it's position below the freewheel!).
I've had good results using standard Shimano Uniglide 6-speed freewheels with several Allvit derailers, but each took time and effort to diagnose and modify the derailer's travel-limiting mechanical dimensions within the body and parallelogram. Different versions (including Schwinn-Approved) require different parts to be ground down here and there, with paper shims and wet paint used to identify the exact sources of interference (and which made for some "sporting" efforts in the workshop!).
One top-shelf custom bike builder in Japan apparently was so enamored of the Allvit's particular "knee-action" movement that he modified one for dual cables leading to the right shift lever so as to eliminate the stiff spring force (and it's requirement of a heavily-tightened shift-lever friction adjustment).
Of obscure note is one Japanese "copy" of the Allvit, the Sugino VIC derailer. It employed a similar, huge, chrome-plated drop-down knuckle with the slanted parallelogram invented by Suntour. It was part of an indexed 7-speed system (with thumb shifters) and is perhaps the heaviest rear derailer ever made(?). But it's robust construction did not cover for it's relatively-exposed and delicate adjustment screws, which made it and it's front mate a poor off-road derailer set.
See photo at:
https://www.bikestash.com/images/rear...ur_640_480.jpg
Last edited by dddd; 01-24-19 at 11:23 AM.