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Hi-Ten appreciation ?

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Hi-Ten appreciation ?

Old 10-06-15, 11:46 AM
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Looks like the last post is over a year old so I hope nobody minds me digging up an old thread - I wish I had found this earlier because all of my bikes are hi-ten (unintentional).



Let's get started ... My first "real" bike, a 1958 Raleigh Sports. 2030 Hi-ten with original dynohub. I rescued it from the dump in fall '13, gave it new tires, tubes, brake pads, lubed it up. At this point, I was looking for a college bike and was not "into" bikes but knew how to tinker. In the process of finding out what it was and what it needed, I became addicted to bikes which isn't a surprise since I have been a car guy since day 1. Rode it around in as-found condition till Summer '14, gave it a full restoration because I loved it too much and wanted to keep riding it but didn't want it to rust any more than it already had. Currently running gumwall Schwalbe Delta Cruiser tires, kool stop brake pads, new stainless cables (finally), and a nicelite LED in the dynohub. Threw on a '56 shifter i found because the original was long gone anyway. I rebuilt the original SW hub but am temporarily running a '79 AW on it just so it can stand up to the daily abuse in this city. This bike is still my favorite - such a delight to ride and accelerates like it weights half as much as it does.



NEXT. '79 Raleigh Superbe, 2030 hi ten. Canadian model - I painted on the english white tail. Came with Dynohub, fork lock, and AW 3-speed. This was an exercise in seeing what I could build - I bought new Sturmey Archer drum brake 5-speed (X-RD5 W) and dynohub (X-FDD), laced them into Sun CR18 rims. Schwalbe Delta Cruiser tires, reflectalite halogen bulb, other goodies. 1953 Raleigh stem and bars, flipped upside down. Comfy rider but not light. The drum brake hubs + alloy rims weigh the same as the old steel rims and old hubs so this weighs 45 pounds just like my '58 does. I ride this one a lot, too.



But wait, there's more! '75 Raleigh DL-1 Tourist. 2030 once again. Bought it in July for a relative bargain - on top of that, it had hardly been ridden. frame still had its factory-fresh shine in some places. Tires were original but dry rotted. I gave it Schwalbe Delta Cruiser tires once again, kool stop rod brake pads, a Steco rack, dynamo driven lights, Brooks B67 saddle and leather Gyes handlebar grips (not pictured). It's probably funny for some kids, seeing a college guy Mary-Poppins-ing it all up on this beast. I know of only one other DL-1 being ridden in Ann Arbor.



Last but not least, my '79 Ross Professional Gran Tour. It may be 1020 hi ten. The later ones were chromoly, I heard. I'm not sure. Either way, It is my dependable beater that lives outdoors. Crankset is the only original part to the frame, the rest have been slowly swapped out for junk or cheap parts by me as they died. Alloy 700c rims came to me with the bike. Continental Tour Ride tires. Rigged up a "brifter" setup with mtb shifters so I wouldn't have to finagle with the stem shifters while accelerating in this pot-hole-ridden town. It's the lightest bike in my stable (35 lbs). Doesn't look good but it's a nice rider. It handles a rear pannier load very well. I recently participated in a race with it surrounded by carbon and aluminum bikes that weighed half as much. Here I was in my jeans, t-shirt, and steel frame beater with fenders, rack, and lock still attached. I had to go to work right after. I there for the giggles and still didn't finish last!!

All of these bikes are being well-loved by me. I don't beat them up, I treat them well, but they never sit for long. I ride the heck out of them because they're just too nice not to ride!

I don't think I have any special attachment to hi-ten but I do respect and appreciate it. It's just that all of the bikes that I have and love up to this date happen to be that. I haven't really tried to find anything "nicer" because I see no need at the moment. I don't have anything against hi ten either. It's smooth riding, durable, and cheap.
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Old 10-06-15, 11:57 AM
  #77  
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Great reading.
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Old 10-06-15, 12:49 PM
  #78  
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Heavily modified Raleigh Sports...
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Old 10-06-15, 12:59 PM
  #79  
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I have this 1991 Murray Spectra. Probably the most dangerous bike in this thread. It cost me $15, and about every part that can rattle or squeak rattles and squeaks. If I shake the handlebars the entire back end of the bike wiggles around separately. I rode it to the store the other day...a very scary experience.

Although it will probably kill me, I like it. It shifts great, it's nearly rust free, and it's much faster than my mtb w/slicks.



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Old 10-06-15, 01:47 PM
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All steel is an alloy. Who cares what they call it. All I know is my old Fuji's weigh a lot less than most old Schwinns.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:10 PM
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i have very little appreciation for hi-ten, but that doesn't mean they're not fun to rebuild.

'78 fuji s10-s


'75 centurion super lemans


'74 centurion lemans
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Old 10-06-15, 02:26 PM
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Old Raleigh Sports bikes were made of mild carbon steel - 1010 or what is called today hi-ten.

Such bikes will never be lightweight mile munchers but they're solid bikes that ride well and literally last forever.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:34 PM
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This beauty is fairly new to "One Browns Lane" A 1971 Robin Hood "Sports Model" 3 speed made by Raleigh in England.



The High Tensile Steel tubing label has no associated numbers.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:40 PM
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Thanks JMONAY for the resurrection of the thread - I had actually forgotten about it. It was also timely, since I finished (no bike of of mine is ever finished until it is sold) it today.

My Free Spirit, SA 8-speed. Photos were taken near the compost bins

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Old 10-06-15, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JMONAY
Haha never heard anyone refer to a Raleigh Sports as a "lil' cute" before but this one sure is the way its set up! Haha that sure brought a smile to my face. Usually the only things I hear about these bikes are "tough and dependable" or "too clunky, heavy, and antiquated." If you aren't already familiar by now, the Raleigh Sports was the little sister to the Tourist, which was the standard 3-speed rod brake utility bike with 28" wheels. the Sports was a lighter, faster version with cable operated brakes and 26" (590) wheels. Raleigh made both models from the '30s until the early '80s.
@michael k I like your setup. The peugeot is beautiful, especially with bluemels fenders. As for the Sports, do I spy cream Delta Cruiser tires and alloy rims? that's gotta be a nice ride (assuming it has been finished). Also, I couldn't help but notice - what year is yours? It looks like it has a post-'65 rear fender with two pairs of braces. Downtube decals look like pre-61 and '65-69. Btw I think mattress saddles like the one you have are underrated - I had one just like it on my '58 Sports for the longest time. I have started running a Brooks B72 on it recently but will switch back to the vinyl mattress saddle for the winter. Not a performance piece but certainly comfortable, a good match for the bike
It was a total rebuild.The hub date is Aug '52. Here she is when we first got her home.
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Old 10-06-15, 04:08 PM
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Riding is about the ride, imo. People get WAY too hung up on gear. I've found I often rider farther and faster on my steel bikes than many people I meet that have really high end stuff. I've seen this same thing guitar players, too. Many people that can barely play a few chords badly own very expensive acoustic or electric guitars. It's like they think that if they buy something really high end it will make them a better player/rider. It's a sad reality of the society we live in..
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Old 10-06-15, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by exmechanic89
Riding is about the ride, imo. ....... It's like they think that if they buy something really high end it will make them a better player/rider. It's a sad reality of the society we live in..
+1, It's always been about the ride. Bikes especially depend on the condition of the engine --- something that can't be bought. I see the "buy better to get better" attitude in all segments of sports, from biking to skiing to scuba diving (probably also golf and tennis, but I don't so I don't know). But hr attitude applies everywhere.

Knowledge, skill and experience are depreciated, and replaced with something that can be bought and sold.

As far as bikes go, my opinion and that of my small circle of riding buddies is that you buy a decent bike and put a good engine on it. You don't buy a better bike than the engine warrants.
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Old 10-06-15, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
This Hi-Ten Free Spirit is the most comfortable road bike I've ever ridden.





Free Spirit Sunbird by Lester Luallin, on Flickr
I have the same exact free Spirit luged red frame, same size. Right now it comes in at 36 pounds. It has all chrome nutted steel wheels, seat stem, hi rise front head set, sprung seat. Falcon front and rear DRs.
this fame fits me perfect. I have a 63cm Raleigh Gran Prix thats to big for me however it has all Suntour GVX, aluminum wheel set with hi rise hubs, seat post, head set, drop bars including barcons. I will put all these parts on the Free Spirit. I also have a Suntour aluminum luxe long cage RD and a 71 nuevo record RD that is pristine that i might try on it. I have a 71 Sports Tourer thats also to big for me that has a Brooks B15 saddle and a 55/39 crank that might work as well. I need to start riding again so I will have to start slow and work my way up to ride my Club Fuji again.

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Old 10-06-15, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by exmechanic89
Riding is about the ride, imo. People get WAY too hung up on gear. I've found I often rider farther and faster on my steel bikes than many people I meet that have really high end stuff. I've seen this same thing guitar players, too. Many people that can barely play a few chords badly own very expensive acoustic or electric guitars. It's like they think that if they buy something really high end it will make them a better player/rider. It's a sad reality of the society we live in..
my martin sounds 1000 times better just strumming an em7 chord than my yamaha ever did.

my full 531 falcon is more a joy to ride than any mid-level bike i've built.

experience teaches it's both the individual and the instrument.
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Old 10-06-15, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
+1, It's always been about the ride. Bikes especially depend on the condition of the engine --- something that can't be bought. I see the "buy better to get better" attitude in all segments of sports, from biking to skiing to scuba diving (probably also golf and tennis, but I don't so I don't know). But hr attitude applies everywhere.

Knowledge, skill and experience are depreciated, and replaced with something that can be bought and sold.

As far as bikes go, my opinion and that of my small circle of riding buddies is that you buy a decent bike and put a good engine on it. You don't buy a better bike than the engine warrants.
Totally agree. And yeah, I think this attitude extends into just about every hobby. It's become pretty tedious to me, that for many folks instead of aspiring to be the best at something, they instead aspire to own the best tools needed for the job. As I often say to people, ask any Tour De France winner how they would like to be remembered - would it be for the race they won, or.. the super cool bike they rode the race on? Pretty sure we know the answer.

Nothing wrong with hi ten framed bikes. You can have just as a nice a ride on one as you can on the fastest/lightest carbon bike. Many riders do it every day.

Some nice bikes in this thread, btw. I'd happily ride many of them.
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Old 10-06-15, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eschlwc
my martin sounds 1000 times better just strumming an em7 chord than my yamaha ever did.

my full 531 falcon is more a joy to ride than any mid-level bike i've built.

experience teaches it's both the individual and the instrument.
If you say so.
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Old 10-06-15, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by exmechanic89
If you say so.
it's a very silly argument.

you can drive a yugo across the country if you like, but an experienced driver will have more fun in a porsche.
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Old 10-06-15, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by eschlwc
it's a very silly argument.

you can drive a yugo across the country if you like, but an experienced driver will have more fun in a porsche.
Driving the Yugo might make for a better story when all is said and done.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:13 PM
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yes, david lynch made a good film about a man riding across the midwest on a lawnmower.

the protagonist didn't have a porsche.
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Old 10-07-15, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Driving the Yugo might make for a better story when all is said and done.
1989 Yugo GVL Long-Term Road Test - New Updates

And to keep things on-topic:

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Old 10-07-15, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dweenk
Looking around my garage, I see 4 bikes constructed of Hi-Ten tubing. I ride them all and really can't see why they are looked down upon. Yes, they are heavier, but they are all comfortable riders.

I ride them where I would not ride my better bikes -in town, in the woods, on snow/ice/mud/sand, or where I fear it may be stolen. In short - they have more value by having less value.

Your thoughts?
The differences between low end steel and hi-end engineered frame sets is much much narrower than most people are comfortable actually acknowledging.

If you put some of the most discerning cyclists on a bunch of Centurions and had them ride everything from the Cinelli made Equippe and then the other Tange 1 through 5 bikes, all other things being equal most of the cyclists couldn't identify which was which. I promise you the feedback would be guesswork in terms of which climbed, sprinted, and rode best and which handled best. It wouldn't actually correlate to which tube set was on each bike, if you didn't let people pick them up.

Most of cycling is vanity and cache. Which is kind of funny when talking about good ol' rusty heavy steel. People love the projection of brand identity. Was Nuovo Record good kit? Not really. Any Suntour derailleurs would out shift the Campagnolo bits. Aluminum and Carbon are lighter, stiffer and stronger and build up better bikes. Now many cyclists idolize steel and project onto it all this yesterday-was-better nonsense. Many aging cyclists naturally prefer the overt flexyness of steel bikes because they are a "half step" to a comfort or hybrid bike as their bones and bodies become more brittle and lose the flexibility. If you're riding around on a Pinarello you don't feel as geriatric as if you were riding around on a bike with front suspension. Many aging cyclists prefer steel bike as defecto "comfort bikes" and don't even realize it. They no longer ride fast, nor do they want a performance rocket race bike that a stiffer carbon or aluminum bike would give them. They want Cadillac not Ferrari at their age.

Where it becomes funny is trying to make variations of steel tubing seem like the variances between titanium, magnesium, carbon and aluminum. There is SO MUCH more variance between frame materials than there is between the perceived differences between steel tube sets. That's not to say stovepipe isn't indistinguishable from Reynolds 531, but most people love to wax on about artistry and craftsmanship of their vintage 531 SL bikes but don't realize that most venerated builders were incapable of actually being able to work with Reynolds 753 tubing (heat treated 531) when it debuted. All those "craftsmen" and "artisans" built with steel because it was cheap and had a low entry to production. Basically you just needed a jig, tubing, torch and some silver and anyone can learn to braze a bike. In fact people to this day sign up for build-your-own-frame courses that run about a week (in residence) where you walk away with a bike you build yourself. Even "master" frame builders failed to be certified to build with 753. In fact, if you really want to embarrass a "master" frame builder who has been around for a good while ask him to show you his Reynolds 753 certification. At one point only there were only five frame builders in the entire US that had the frame building skill to handle the precision and accuracy required for 753:

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bri...lds753artl.htm
https://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/...ds-tubing.html

Why? Simply because when a frame builder works with normal steel tubing everything can be "close enough." As you braze-up a steel bike you can tweak or bend everything to fit on the jig when in reality the frame wasn't properly aligned or brazing or welding tubes changed the alignment. Reynolds 753 is kind of the closest thing to welding titanium or aluminum, that steel bike builders ever got a taste of. Back in the day building up an aluminum frame or a titanium frame required master welders with comprehensive knowledge and experience. Many big name frame builders were absolutely humbled by Reynolds 753. You can't "cold set" a Reynolds 753 frame in the rear spacing. If the frame builder doesn't have the requisite skill you can't just bend everything in the jig for "close enough." Many of the top names in custom frame building talked customers out of 753 bikes, even though they could be up to 1.5lbs lighter on the frame set. The reality was they weren't able to be certified because they didn't have the frame building skill to manage to get everything to align precisely.

So the next time someone gets all snobby about Reynolds 531 SL laugh at 'em. Reynolds 531 dates back to 1935. The good stuff was actually 753 which didn't debut for another forty years in 1975, but the reality is that almost every frame builder in the world didn't have the skill to actually be able to build with 753. Make no mistake, a 753 bike will ALWAYS be lighter, stiffer, and stronger than a 531 bike, period (read faster, better climber, better sprinter).

There is so much false narrative in the cycling community. The reality is most cyclists couldn't honestly tell you the really good stuff from the not quite so good stuff. I'm not talking stovepipe junk Schwinn to Olmo, but the tube sets in between. The reality is that the cost differences in the "good stuff" from everything else wasn't as much as the price points would have everyone believe. Libertas used to sneak Reynolds 531 main tubes into some of their most low end bikes, even women's mixte step-throughs.

At some point steel is just steel. Sure 753 made a great bike, and the thin wall tubing almost rivaled the performance of the thin wall aluminum bikes that would change the paradigm. However, at the end of the day most frame builders just couldn't work with it for the same reason they couldn't work with titanium, magnesium, or aluminum. It required an expertise, aptitude, and skill level beyond the "close enough" standards under which most steel bikes are built.

I like this thread. I'm a HUGE fan of good vintage lightweight bikes. The reality is that the cheapo Craigslist Miyata, Panasonic, Centurion, Peugeot, Rampar, Viscount, Univega, Azuki, Raleigh, or Motobecane is much much closer to the performance that can be found in the "grail" tube sets than really anyone cares to admit. Largely, the differences are almost entirely in weight. The snobbery and the "narcissism of small differences" that accompanies the revered 531 tubing and its SL variant is wholly undeserved.

Whenever I see someone posting all vain about their SL vintage bike I think to myself first its beautiful, second if it was good kit it would have been built of 753 instead, and then that the venerated label on the side probably didn't have a single builder competent enough that could actually manage to competently build a 753 bike.

Its all small differences, regardless of the false narrative people would want to believe. For the most part once you move beyond stovepipe, its all vanity and very little performance variance. What differences there actually are lie in weight savings mostly. You want an epic steel bike, talk Reynolds 753 or other heat treated thin wall steel engineered tubing. The problem is that all the cost efficiencies of building steel bikes (cheap to build) go out the window when you require a frame builder with the skill level required similar to what is needed to fabricate using the exotics (aluminum, titanium, magnesium).

There are differences. You can't begin to compare the performance of a 753 to its lowly 531 ancestors. However, it is all a narrow spectrum limited to still talking about just steel. So the gap between hi-ten and say 531 is, in my mind, much narrower than say the paradigm gap between a vintage steel 531 bike and a high end Cannondale or Klein, or modern carbon disposable bike.

Mostly though its all vanity, and very few cyclists are able to actually talk about frame material and separate out their agenda. Reynolds 753 in the steel bike cult is proof enough of that.

Last edited by mtnbke; 10-07-15 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 10-07-15, 03:38 AM
  #97  
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No way I'm going back to hi-ten. At my level of riding I need lightness and quickness. When it comes to a casual ride, I'm grabbing the other 531 and SL bikes dripping with Campy. Yes, there is a difference.
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Old 10-07-15, 05:08 AM
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The absolute nicest bicycle ride of my life took place one foggy Sunday morning, which lasted into the sunny afternoon. Was I riding one of my high end, exotic tubed wonder bikes? Nope, just this old Legnano that I found at the Dump and spent exactly zero dollars on to prepare it for that wonderful ride that I would never have expected from a more entry level bicycle. The Legnano caused me to, dramatically, rethink my ideas pertaining to ride quality, when vintage bicycles are the focus of interest...

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Old 10-07-15, 08:50 AM
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All of my bikes are some form of "Premium" Steel.
Either DB 4130
Columbus
Reynolds 531.

I have a weird aversion to Hi-Ten, even though the best riding bike ive ever owned was my Hi-Ten Le Tour single speed conversion.


Growing up, I raced/rode bmx bikes. Hi-Ten bikes were the ones with the shoddy welding that would always break.
4130 bikes were the ones that could take punishment day after day.

Its been hard to shake that.

I will admit, my LeTour was nicer than all my other bikes in the ride department.
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Old 10-07-15, 11:38 AM
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My Peugeot U08 commuter build rides wonderfully for exactly that. I do not expect to race on it but with respect to riding comfort I appreciate the HiTen steel. Virtually the only thing original on it are the frame and the fork.

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