Craig Hamilton

Hi guys, can anyone please tell me what size headset I will need for an early 1970s Claud Butler electron. I have just been given this bike as a rescue from a skip. Very nice frame but headset is missing. Does come with forks. Just wanted to check on here first as I only think it is a standard 1".

Thanks

Craig

fietsbob

Knock out the old headset and take it to a Bike shop.

remove the crown race, or bring the fork ..

that will give the shop the parts to measure to get you compatible replacements ..


1" is only the Outside diameter of the fork steerer.

Grand Bois

Yes, knock out the missing headset.

Craig Hamilton

Thanks, but the complete headset is missing. So is fork crown race.

ColonelJLloyd 

I see no reason it wouldn't be a standard English threaded headset with a 26.4mm crown race. You can measure the crown seat of the fork with digital calipers to confirm.

JohnDThompson 

The two most important measurements will be the diameter of the fork crown race seat and the stack height. Once you know those, you can choose an appropriate headset.

Grand Bois

Determining stack height is the harder part.

rpenmanparker 

OP exactly how many "forks" did it come with?

repechage

There is a good chance you need a pretty short stack height headset. Tange made shoe cheaper ones with lower overall stack height requirements.

Wheels Of Steel

My aren't our panties in a bunch.

Grand Bois

I don't know about yours. I don't wear them.

billnuke1 

Ooooo! Goinnn' COmannnndooo!

rootboy 

You don't wear panties when working on your head set? What's the matter with you?
This is a safety issue.

Grand Bois

I've been much more into vintage audio that vintage bikes lately. I've learned to always wear pants when soldering.

Standalone 

@Craig Hamilton did you find the correct headset? I need one for a '70's Claud Butler majestic that came my way from the pay it forward thread.

verktyg 

Easy way to determine the stack height:



Check out the text under the pictures in this Flickr album for more details:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57625424641013



A lot of older Brit frames used Brampton or TDC headsets with short stack heights.




Most French and some Japanese Keirin headsets used 27.0mm crown races. British and Italian headsets were usually 26.4mm. ALL Campy headsets that I know of have 26.4mm crown races. Tange still offers some models in both 26.4mm and 27.0mm.

It's been suggested that some bikes used 26.5mm crown races but that well within the loose manufacturing tolerances for a 26.4mm press fit on a bike.



BTW folks, the proper terminology in the UK is "knickers" not panties as in "Don't get your knickers in a knot!"


verktyg

Chas.

steelbikeguy

always nice to benefit from your experience and knowledge!

I've led a relatively blessed life and not had to struggle with issues of stack height much, but .... it does make me wonder if there were any informal standards or practices that led to a few particular stack heights dominating the industry? I suppose the Campy Record headset was a bit of an informal standard in an industry that otherwise wasn't all that motivated to develop standards.

My one experience with struggling with a stack height issue was when my '74 Raleigh Gran Sport had indents in the lower race and cup. As noted, the stock headset had a relatively short stack height, so I had to leave the old upper cup & cone installed and just replaced the lower cup and race. It does make one wish that the bike manufacturer would install a headset spacer, just to allow for some flexibility when the headset eventually is replaced.. but there's obviously no significant incentive for them to do this.

Steve in Peoria

verktyg 

Thanks....

There were never really many standards in bicycle components like headsets and BBs - rational either! I've seen published specs for the stack height on Campy Record headsets from 41mm to 43mm. I've measured them from 40mm to 42mm!



Glad you used the term "indentations".. That's what they are and without analysis by a metallurgical lab, the causes and resulting damages are just guesses!

In a pinch you can make many headsets with indentations useable by rotating either the lower cup or crown race a few degrees so that they're misaligned enough that the balls don't sink into to the damaged areas.

Since headsets are thrust bearings, rotational forces like those found in hubs and BBs are not significant. The caged bearings make assembly easy but keep the balls in the same area of the headset cups and cones (crown race) which increases the likelihood of indenting.



That's why I like to use a full count of loose balls. They distribute the forces over a larger area than caged bearings.


Another trick, the upper bearings in headsets are rarely damaged or indented. It's the lower cup and crown races that fail.

Tange makes several economical headsets. I've used the lower parts to replace crown races and bottom cups on a lot of bikes with bad lower bearings. They have a classic look too.

The Passage is the least expensive model. They're made of case hardened steel. The ball races are not ground or polished. They have a stack height of ~30mm with a lower height of ~11mm.



Tange Levin CDS headsets have ~33mm stack heights with a lower height of ~11mm. They're made if through hardened chrome-moly steel and the races are ground and polished. The also have plastic dust seals on the lower bearing.




One last thing. when you have the headset out, it's always a good idea to reface the head tube and fork crown. You can pick up a millimeter or two to gain some additional stack height room on the frame.


verktyg

Chas.

steelbikeguy

Well, there goes another of my assumptions about Campy!
I didn't own a bike with all Campy bits until the late 90's, so I'm still learning the subtle details about their parts. The Record hubs were nicely consistent, but parts like the cranks got changed by the CPSC rules and a fair bit of attention is needed to get the crank axle and cups all matched properly. I've relied on Chuck Schmidt's Campy Timeline a few times to understand the subtle evolution of their seemingly unchanged product lineup during the NR and SR era.

regarding indentations: I used to work around folks that did the analysis on failed engine components and I have a lot of respect for their knowledge and their really cool analysis equipment. As such, I just try to report what I can observe and not try to diagnose what happened. ... plus... I recall the long discussions on RBT involving Jobst. Best not to get dragged into that sort of thing without really knowing what you are talking about.

No argument from me about using loose balls and rotating the lower race by half the bearing pitch in order to get a bit more life from that rare headset. I've got one bike with a NR (or is it just Record?) headset that is starting to demonstrate a slight bit of "indexing", so this might be in my future.

I will put in a good word for roller bearing headsets. 26 years and 50,000 miles ago, I had a frame built by a fellow who specialized in tandems, and he installed a Stronglight Delta headset with roller bearings. It is still using the original parts and doesn't show any wear. I've since installed a Delta on a commuting bike (now with 35,000 miles) and the vintage-ish A9 headset on Raleigh Team bike. Wonderful stuff! ... and out of production. I've got spares, and there are other manufacturers of roller bearing headsets out there.

Very true! I've got a couple of the Tange Levin headsets in the parts box and have considered using just the lower portion to fix the previously mentioned indexing Record headset. That will have to wait until I've exhausted the less severe option of rotating the lower race (I think I've already installed loose balls).

Steve in Peoria