rootboy 

OK you guys. I know RHM's technique, I think…but how do you set the rivets in the side of the nose?

oddjob2

I realize we are discussing old school technique here, but in making the mold or last, wouldn't this be a perfect application for 3D printing? I know little about the tech, but I would think you could get the print to shrink enough to account for the leather thickness?

a77impala

Flaring the nose rivets is difficult, that's why I use steel rivets. Steel rivets have hollow shafts, copper are solid. I use a punch that has been ground to fit the rivet, it is still a pain. The rivet head is resting on my anvil, be careful the rivet head is flat or you can mar the leather.
You almost need three hands!

lotekmod

That's an interesting topic for me. I'm a design engineer for a manufacturing company, spend all day modeling things in 3D on the computer, and have a 3d printer sitting 20ft from my desk. I was also a furniture maker many years ago. For me, I could shape the mold in wood by hand in about half the time it would take to model it on the computer. When I shape by hand I don't measure anything, I just hack at it and test fit. When you model you have to make lots of measurements and you don't get to test it until it's printed. For me the 3d printing is only valuable if you are going to make many copies of the same thing.

It's something I think about often since I work in this everyday- it's often faster to do it the old fashioned way, and very few people have those skills anymore.

edit: I take that back, I could probably model it in 30 minutes, it took an hour to make by hand. But I most likely would not have modeled it right the first time and would have to reprint it. Those compound curves are difficult to measure so you have to eyeball it. Lots of wasted plastic.

rhm

I use leather that's even thicker than Impala's. I've measured some of mine at 6 or 7 mm. It's not easy to work with it, and even so, sometimes they get too soft. Not good!

Now, about those nose rivets....

I got a cutoff piece of steel I-beam from a fabricator in Trenton NJ. I gave him $5 for it which I think was about $4 more than he was expecting. It's about the size of a sixpack of beer, if you want a visual. If I poke a solid copper rivet all the way through the holes in both the leather and the side of the nose piece, so a good 2 or 3 mm of it is sticking out on the inside of the nose piece, there is still room inside the nose piece for the anvil. It helps to round off the corner of the anvil with a file or grinder. Anyway, with the anvil inside the nose piece, you can smack the head of the rivet with the hammer a few times and mushroom the other end of the rivet against the anvil. It's a bit tricky, but it works.



Another way to do it is to use a railroad spike as a punch. You put the nose of the saddle down on the anvil, with the head of the rivet resting on the anvil, and the head of the spike resting on the other end of the rivet, and smack the point of the spike with the hammer.

Finally, when you're all done, you have to do something to harden the leather. Impala? Amir? Want to tell us what you've done? Lately I've been using beeswax, but I'm not convinced it's enough.

Oh, yeah, about the 3D printing idea... I'm pretty sure it would work, and a plastic (nylon) mold would certainly be hard enough for this purpose. But it would be really expensive. I've had stamps (for the skirts of the saddle) 3-D printed for $5 or $8, depending on the thickness; they're about the size of a credit card. A solid piece the size of a saddle would be, i dunno, I'm guessing hundreds of dollars. More to the point, I don't believe a mold is really the way to go. Impala and I have both developed techniques that don't require a mold at all.

a77impala

rhm, a railroad spike, priceless, I have a junk Brooks as my next project, I will use that method. As far as getting the leather hard, I mount the leather wet and shape it on the frame, I let it air dry and it ends up as firm as a new saddle. I condition with Proofide that's all.
The leather I use is very stiff to begin with, maybe a special tanning process for saddle leather, I don't know.

arex

Check a well-stocked farm implement shop for copper rivets.

VonCarlos

I should like to bring up a few points and reiterate what several experienced folks have said here.
As a disclaimer, I use to do leather tooling back in the '70s and may not remember things correctly.

*My old '70s Brooks Pro and my newer Pro both measure out at 4 to 5mm thick and have solid rivets.
*Leather has a grain and direction.
*Leather, in the size for a saddle, can be soft and then very hard and dense in other areas.
*After you wet or soak leather, you must let the leather sit and absorb the water. This can take a while depending on the density. Try this on a scrape, you will be surprised to see that upon slicing open, the center will still be dry.
*After wetting the leather, we would cover the face with plastic wrap or glass to let it absorb evenly and not evaporate.

There are two very good youtube videos about Brooks saddles that have a lot of information. You should watch these over and over, as they provide a great amount of information in a short time span.
* Of note: notice when the leather is being punched-out, that it is all in the same direction and not higgley-piggely. That is because leather has different directions of stretching.



There are many youtube videos on riveting leather.
And a video of riveting:

lotekmod

Thanks for all the great tips everyone. My Olde Timey hardware store where I hope to get the rivets also keeps Olde Timey hours- they close at 5:30 and I can't get there until 6pm. This project is stalled until the weekend. Lots of time to watch videos on riveting.

RHM- I like your saddle making tools. I can picture them hanging on a pegboard above your bench .

repechage

Yes, but if it took an hour to fashion one by hand from a 2x6 the CAD time alone would surpass that, then you still have to have it printed out. A saddle is not a small part, equals a decent amount of printer time, time is money, and not accounting for materials.

rootboy 

Good stuff, Von Carlos. Not sure how long one would need to soak a saddle blank but probably not long. Most saddle makers and those who carve and decorate leather only need it soft enough to tool. And yes, letting the leather sit, sometimes in a sealed bag, or casing, is a step that really helps the moisture level in the leather to stabilize and even out through the piece. But of course it depends on how much you need to bend the leather. For my brake hoods, if I soak the pieces any less than 4 or 5 hours, I can't make it do what I need it to do, and I usually case it overnight in a sealed zip lock bag. But I'm making radical tight bends with compound curves.

FWIW, I dislike the technique used rivet setting video. To me it only makes sense to use the proper anvil behind the post piece, to help prevent bending the post, and a concave anvil when setting a rivet with the head down. I bent a lot of rivets in the 70's because I didn't own the right tools. Which are inexpensive nowadays. Unless you buy them from that guy's web site. Yeesh. He's charging at least double what rivet setting tools can be had for.

Big Block

Another thread on recovering saddles, where I had hope to consolidate the information.

Why not drill the holes?
I sit the shaped dried leather on the saddle frame, mark and then drill holes

I use thicker leather 6.2mm to 7mm
No concerns at premature stretching

and how I set the rivets in the nosepiece

and if you don't want to use rivets

Philip

crank_addict

Great thread and nice work by those of you. Although I'll probably never attempt replacing a leather saddle, its interesting to see the process and different ways.

Not much to share here but thought about the rivets. Have an old brake shoe rivet machine in the shop, like the image depicted. One depresses a pedal to close, leaving the hands free to position the brake shoe backing and liner. Various rivets are available and the machine probably could fit the type used in bike saddles.

a77impala

I guess if you are letting the leather dry before mounting and drill from the bottom you could drill. I rivet the leather on wet and form it on the frame, hard to drill wet leather. Leather then dries and shrinks on the frame.

16Victor

you guys are the pros - doing excellent work. From the sidelines, would a standard rivet setter for an air hammer be of use?

rootboy 

Cool old machine, Crank Addict. Have you tried it? I'm wondering how the leverage is increased enough to set the rivets. Or maybe it doesn't need that much.

Interesting approach, Impala. Do you notice any distortion of your shape as the leather dries? Or does it just sort of snug up.

BTW, speaking of drying leather, I got an interesting surprise when doing my brake hoods, when I thought, after drying for two or 3 days they must be bone dry…something that small. Au contraire! I noticed that all of the sets of prototypes I did became useless, after they continued to shrink for up to a week. Ended up too short. And I had cut them long to accommodate for shrinkage. I thought.

The lesson, FWIW? If it were me I wouldn't sit on those new saddle tops too soon. Might take a week to thoroughly dry. Again, FWIW.

crank_addict

We used the brake riveter for re-shoeing old tractor brake linings. Then it became cheaper to buy new replacement brakes complete with the metal backing and bonded lining. Probably the large truck class still use re-rivet linings but the factories that do them use modern pneumatic machines.

Someday I'll have to un-bury it and see how a leather saddle would maneuver. Leverage is easy and applies quite an amount of pressure. Rivets are consistent, perfect and fast technique. Foot pressure by feel is all that controls the amount and its not like a 'hammer or punch machine'.

a77impala

[QUOTE

Interesting approach, Impala. Do you notice any distortion of your shape as the leather dries? Or does it just sort of snug up.


The leather just snugs up, I think would be a better fit than mounting after drying. Although I have never used that method.

jeirvine 

In the first Brooks video above they show just a one hour soaking, then a few hours drying in ovens after shaping.

rootboy 

Yeah. Granted, I have to really saturate my leather hoods, much more so than a saddle blank. Yet I found damp leather takes a long time to dry to the core. Hence the ovens Brooks uses.

Edit: I learned a long time ago, as have many of us, that one shouldn't dry leather, mostly in reference to shoes and boots, close to a direct heat source. Better to let leather dry at room temperature, away from heat.
I suppose Brooks dries their saddles in ovens as a necessity due to production demands.

lotekmod

I'll let everyone know how the dry fit method ends up. I don't really understand why leather shrinks when you wet it. Is this a one shot deal, as in it only shrinks the first time you wet it or could it shrink a little more with a second wetting? I can always use the tension screw (gasp!) to get it a little tighter. As for the shape, right now it fits perfectly on the frame. It is the exact shape of the old leather and I can still reshape it slightly after mounting it by wetting those areas.

a77impala

Wet leather stretches, when it dries it will shrink a little. That's why you shouldn't let your saddle get soaked when riding, it will stretch but not shrink back to original size. I rode a 75 mile MS ride in the rain, after my saddle dried I had to retension it.
When I form a saddle it stretches to the shape I want but does not return to its original shape when drying. If I stretch it to much it will be ruined so I am very careful when shaping.
I once tried to dry a new saddle cover in the oven and it shrivelled up and was ruined, to hot, now I air dry only.
Also if your leather is to thin it will stretch just in normal riding and require constant tensioning, I learned that the hard way also.
Sorry I am going on and on, I hope your saddle turns out perfect!

lotekmod

I don't mind any and all information and advice. The phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is the story of my life. I know a little bit about an awful lot.

I'm aware that the thinner 3mm leather might stretch while riding, we'll see what happens. The 3mm leather was significantly cheaper than 5mm, and since I didn't know if I would get even this far in the process I still think it was worth the $15 for the experience. If it only lasts half a season then I'll do it again with thicker leather and maybe try your wet apply method.

phoebeisis

Cool stuff?
Are their adhesives now that would allow a no rivet saddle?
The rivets are CLOSE to the edges-but not at the edges-
What actually prevents those edges from lifting?

Granted the copper rivets-look waaaay cool
Original iron rivets-not as cool looking-must have been cheaper.

a77impala

[QUOTE=phoebeisis;16449574]Cool stuff?

What actually prevents those edges from lifting?

The leather is 5mm thick, and pretty stiff.

The copper rivets are very hard to peen, steel easy, they are hollow. Price is irrelevant, steel $.20 each, copper $.50 at Ace.