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-   -   The most underrated components (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/934153-most-underrated-components.html)

noglider 02-17-14 12:40 PM

dddd, I have used a Nuovo Record derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel with good results. It depends on luck somewhat.

dddd 02-17-14 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16503087)
dddd, I have used a Nuovo Record derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel with good results. It depends on luck somewhat.

Too many of us to mention have done this, perhaps some even stretching to 30t???

Where things go downhill is when trying 28t with even a 39-52t in front, suddenly it doesn't want to work any more.

That's where a sprung upper "B" pivot comes to the rescue, accommodating the extra chain take-up with ease.

Some say the Super Record mech gives a little more, can someone confirm?

Sixty Fiver 02-17-14 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16502872)
This cute line is written often, but it's not always true. The derailleur works well on some bikes.

But it messes with the Campiphilistines... :D

It works rather well with a 42/54 and a 13-21 7 speed block on my Cooper... the Cyclone I used when I ran a 13-28 shifted many times better (and worked with a wider range) but the NR is solid and the build quality is rather outstanding.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/2012cooper1.JPG

Sixty Fiver 02-17-14 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 16502937)
Not quite. It has a sprung upper pivot the Nuovo Record lacks. It was most likely based on the Simplex derailleur, as sixty-fiver suggests.

I've long suspected some sort of licensing agreement between Simplex and Shimano, e.g.:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/simplex-shimano.jpg

It is so sad that Simplex followed the marvelous 61, with the Prestige which essentially killed them.

The Prestige is a nice design as it shifts really well and could probably run circles around an NR for a fraction of the price but they are made of fromage... derailleurs have to be reliable.

zandoval 02-17-14 02:13 PM

Always on my shopping list and searches for a good price...

Regina Synchro Free wheel (you will know it when your hear it)

Original Silkca Frame pump (aluminum)

Di-Compi SVX Brake Set (fits long or short)

Fluted aluminum 24mm seat post (French)

aixaix 02-17-14 03:09 PM

A quick comparison of a NR with a second-generation Super Record: the distance between the derailleur mount and cage pivot is about the same at 75mm more or less; the distance from the cage pivot to the tension roller pivot on the NR is about 35mm while the SR dimension is approximately 45mm; the distance from the cage pivot to the jockey roller is about the same on both at 25mm, and the relationship between these three pivots is a right triangle with the cage pivot at the apex. (All measures are approximate: the SR is on a bike hanging from the wall and I don't feel like lugging it down right now.) Clearly, the SR can wrap more chain. In my very limited experience, the SR does work noticeably better on wider-range freewheels, but it doesn't have much more capacity than the NR. Neither would be my first choice for a touring or MTB set-up, though on road bikes with 42/52 chain rings and 14-28 freewheels they both do fine.

JohnDThompson 02-17-14 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16503356)
It is so sad that Simplex followed the marvelous 61, with the Prestige which essentially killed them.

The Prestige is a nice design as it shifts really well and could probably run circles around an NR for a fraction of the price but they are made of fromage... derailleurs have to be reliable.

The light weight of the Prestige made it popular on race bikes, where they would be replaced at the first sign of wear.

repechage 02-17-14 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aixaix (Post 16503541)
A quick comparison of a NR with a second-generation Super Record: the distance between the derailleur mount and cage pivot is about the same at 75mm more or less; the distance from the cage pivot to the tension roller pivot on the NR is about 35mm while the SR dimension is approximately 45mm; the distance from the cage pivot to the jockey roller is about the same on both at 25mm, and the relationship between these three pivots is a right triangle with the cage pivot at the apex. (All measures are approximate: the SR is on a bike hanging from the wall and I don't feel like lugging it down right now.) Clearly, the SR can wrap more chain. In my very limited experience, the SR does work noticeably better on wider-range freewheels, but it doesn't have much more capacity than the NR. Neither would be my first choice for a touring or MTB set-up, though on road bikes with 42/52 chain rings and 14-28 freewheels they both do fine.

Second generation Super Record can indeed capture a wider ratio than the Nuovo Record or first generation Super. Slapping in a 28t cogged freewheel is of no consequence. The later Super Record also has the "reverse" pivot bolt orientation which buys a few mm to keep from plucking spokes or worse and you can run a 7 speed with that 28. I have not tried an 8 block. This is with the swing of the parallelogram working against you as it reaches for the largest cog. I don't like the looks compared to the first generation, but it does have better performance. Campagnolo wrung that basic design for all it was capable of at the end.

aixaix 02-17-14 05:15 PM

Quote:

It is so sad that Simplex followed the marvelous 61, with the Prestige which essentially killed them.
-Quoth Sixty Fiver
Killed them? Not hardly. I suspect they sold more Prestige derailleurs than all their previous models combined. Unless you mean the Prestige killed off the earlier, better Simplex models.
You are right about the Prestige being pretty good when new. They wore out rapidly and were prone to breakage. The fronts were worse than the rears, but the rears weren't much good after a short time.
Quote:

Campagnolo wrung that basic design for all it was capable of at the end.
-Quoth Repechage

Yup.

Interesting to contrast the Record family with the Valentino/Velox/Gran Turismo gizmos.
Kind of like Porsche: Record is to 911 as V/V/GT is to 914.

zukahn1 02-17-14 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16503087)
dddd, I have used a Nuovo Record derailleur with a 14-28 freewheel with good results. It depends on luck somewhat.

I have found that the older Nuovo Records have no trouble handling a nicer vintage 14-28 5speed or comapct 6, like the Reginas, Atoms, and Suntours that where vintage to the DR. But they struggle often don't quit pull off modern 6/7 14-28's. Nothing agaisnt these as DR's they handled the top end freeweels from when they where made rather nicely 12 up to 28 somtimes 30, which was all they where every made to do.

pfaustus 02-17-14 05:58 PM

I haven't seen anyone mention the Suntour Compe V front derailleur. IIRC In the late 70s, nothing even came close for touring bikes.

zukahn1 02-17-14 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfaustus (Post 16504050)
I haven't seen anyone mention the Suntour Compe V front derailleur. IIRC In the late 70s, nothing even came close for touring bikes.

Actually front or rear none of the Suntour V series stuff is mentioned in this thread because it was all higly rated when it came out and still is. A V series shift group in excellent condition goes $75-100 on ebay plus shipping.

noglider 02-17-14 06:10 PM

Hmm, @Zukahn, I wonder why that is.

repechage 02-17-14 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zukahn1 (Post 16504078)
Actually front or rear none of the Suntour V series stuff is mentioned in this thread because it was all higly rated when it came out and still is. A V series shift group in excellent condition goes $75-100 on ebay plus shipping.

One of the Suntour front mechanisms relied on the spring to do the work pushing the chain over to the big ring. That design was seriously flawed.

zukahn1 02-17-14 06:33 PM

I have never had an issue with the reverse action Suntour stuff other than it doesn't match up work well without matching same era Suntour shifters. One of the best shifting vintage bikes I ever owned a 73/74 Nishki Competition had a VX paired with SL front and Racheting/retro fristion barends which where stock. For when it came out it was as good as it gets.

repechage 02-17-14 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zukahn1 (Post 16504139)
I have never had an issue with the reverse action Suntour stuff other than it doesn't match up work well without matching same era Suntour shifters. One of the best shifting vintage bikes I ever owned a 73/74 Nishki Competition had a VX paired with SL front and Racheting/retro fristion barends which where stock. For when it came out it was as good as it gets.

As a paid mechanic back then, the problem was twofold, the spring was doing all the work, you needed to "slap" the shift to let the spring do its job without delay. Then even if you did that and the bike was not well maintained, the excess friction was holding back the cage, slowing the shift. Later as these wore out the spring tension became reduced, sometimes so much that the shift would not complete. In my mind this reverse action was not one of Suntour's better ideas.

jimmuller 02-17-14 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zukahn1 (Post 16504078)
Actually front or rear none of the Suntour V series stuff is mentioned in this thread because it was all higly rated when it came out and still is. A V series shift group in excellent condition goes $75-100 on ebay plus shipping.

See posts #66 , #67 , #75 .

noglider 02-17-14 07:52 PM

I thought the backwards front derailleur was pretty nifty. I didn't keep it long enough to have those problems.

dddd 02-17-14 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16504352)
I thought the backwards front derailleur was pretty nifty. I didn't keep it long enough to have those problems.

A lot of these older derailers stayed on the scene long enough for their owners to substitute a narrower chain such as Sedisport.

These 1st-gen bushingless chains had issues with front shifting in quite a few cases, and with chain-skating on certain freewheels as well.

Most new bikes with backwards Suntour front derailers shifted promptly, at least as I recall, and still do, at least with newer chains such as HG70 and similar KMC chains. A couple of my bikes have Compe V's and they seem fine, even as I have to adjust to their direction in life.

loky1179 02-17-14 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16503356)
The Prestige is a nice design as it shifts really well and could probably run circles around an NR for a fraction of the price but they are made of fromage... derailleurs have to be reliable.

New word of the day? I think I'll have a grilled fromage sandwich with tomato soup?

Not sure if I'm getting the correct meaning(one reference was to something you definitely would NOT want to grill), but anyway, thanks for the "new word of the day".

Sixty Fiver 02-17-14 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16504352)
I thought the backwards front derailleur was pretty nifty. I didn't keep it long enough to have those problems.

I love a high normal front derailleur... the shifting is wonderful and with the default setting adjusting the derailleur is a snap.

Sixty Fiver 02-17-14 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aixaix (Post 16503929)
-Quoth Sixty Fiver
Killed them? Not hardly. I suspect they sold more Prestige derailleurs than all their previous models combined. Unless you mean the Prestige killed off the earlier, better Simplex models.
You are right about the Prestige being pretty good when new. They wore out rapidly and were prone to breakage. The fronts were worse than the rears, but the rears weren't much good after a short time.
-Quoth Repechage

Yup.

Interesting to contrast the Record family with the Valentino/Velox/Gran Turismo gizmos.
Kind of like Porsche: Record is to 911 as V/V/GT is to 914.

Simplex lost a lot of market share while they pursued Delrin derailleurs and by the time they got back to making high quality derailleurs that would not wear out prematurely or fail catastrophically... by then the Japanese were dominating the market and even Campagnolo was having a fit while other European makers were looking to close down or merge.

This is where SRAM came from as they are a conglomerate of Huret, Sachs, and other European manafacturers that were failing.

The Prestige gets better when you replace the jockey wheels with Suntours which are nearly indestructible... having the jockey wheel crack / break on a Prestige was never a good thing... and I really like how well they shift which is something Simplex usually got right.

The JUY 543 on my 1957 Peugeot shifts like it is indexed although these were never under-rated... they were some top end kit and Campagnolo's new parallelogram derailleurs did not compare to these for some years.

zukahn1 02-17-14 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16504799)
Simplex lost a lot of market share while they pursued Delrin derailleurs and by the time they got back to making high quality derailleurs that would not wear out prematurely or fail catastrophically... by then the Japanese were dominating the market and even Campagnolo was having a fit while other European makers were looking to close down or merge.

This is where SRAM came from as they are a conglomerate of Huret, Sachs, and other European manafacturers that were failing.

The Prestige gets better when you replace the jockey wheels with Suntours which are nearly indestructible... having the jockey wheel crack / break on a Prestige was never a good thing... and I really like how well they shift which is something Simplex usually got right.

The JUY 543 on my 1957 Peugeot shifts like it is indexed although these were never under-rated... they were some top end kit and Campagnolo's new parallelogram derailleurs did not compare to these for some years.

I would agree if you can find an old prestige in good shape and replace the pulleys jockey wheels with Suntours you will have youself a very nice dr I typically sell rebuilt prestiges with suntour pulley's for $30-40 fairly easy.

zukahn1 02-18-14 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 16504781)
I love a high normal front derailleur... the shifting is wonderful and with the default setting adjusting the derailleur is a snap.

+1 They are very easy to setup.

frantik 02-18-14 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balindamood (Post 16494680)
Another vote for Deore DX 95% of XT, 25% of the price.

the older "plain" Deore (MT-60/62) is like 99% of XT.. the differences on most components are miniscule. maybe a different finish or steel vs aluminum bolts. I rate Deore around Shimano 105 level.

Practically everything shimano made in the mid-late 80s/early 90s except the super low end stuff all works pretty damn well


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