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-   -   "We'll have to cut the frame down down". (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/934415-well-have-cut-frame-down-down.html)

LeicaLad 02-16-14 03:00 PM

I'm always the slow learner, and my questions can show it.

SO, are you talking about using a head tube reamer to shave off a bit more than the usual facing job? Instead of 6mm, try 2-3mm. If that's all you mean by "cutting the frame", then that should be fine.

That CLB hanger is monster thick. It could lose 1-2 mm without any problem.

Do match up the washers, tho.

You also haven't mentioned the condition of the headset bearing faces. The Stronglight P3 can be found in NOS for, usually for reasonable price. Everyone wants the S4 or fancier ones. That bottom cup is also rather fat, and I'm not sure it's a Stronglight, although the top looks vaguely Stronglight-ish (maybe just French generic?).

Check the GitaneUSA site, as it is full of French thread fans and spare headset parts probably easier to ask for there. Again, search for Vertkyg's posts, too.

Handing blindly over to your LBS says, either, you know the mechanic well and trust him..., or you're crazy.

Sweet looking bike, either way!

rootboy 02-16-14 03:05 PM

For what it's worth, BigRing, I was tempted to do this to a Moto GR frame Scott Ryder gave me. Called by semi-local LBS guy, who is an ace and has the tools, but he told me his particular tool didn't have enough clearance to do the bottom head tube lug, even without seeing the frame. Interference from the down tube. But, your frame looks to have more lug to work with than mine does. That said, if it were me I think I'd send that fork to Frank and have him weld on a new, longer steerer.

big chainring 02-16-14 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeicaLad (Post 16500785)
Handing blindly over to your LBS says, either, you know the mechanic well and trust him..., or you're crazy.

Known him for 40 years. Complete trust and artisan extraordinaire.

Me crazy?

I'll have him straighten it out. Post pics when I get the job done.

So the progression of headsets started with a Stronglight Competition from a mid 70's Motobecane. This had a large stack height. The fit and finish of this headset was very nice. Then i went with another Stronglight headset from a 60's Gitane. Much smaller stack height. I then compared it to another Stronglight from an early 70's Gitane. The early 70's headset was quite flat in comparison to the previous two. My thought is that with the Bike Boom came the need to use less material and a general cheapening of the headset. Basically the same headset as the 60's version but about a 1/4" less height. All pieces just having less metal in them. I can't imagine a headset with less stack height than this last version that is on the bike now.

So its been an interesting mechanical dilemma. And with 2 feet of snow still on the ground, plenty of time to get this sorted and repaired before the wheels hit the pavement. Love the look of the bike though, and sitting on it the fit seems just right.

big chainring 02-16-14 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeicaLad (Post 16500785)
SO, are you talking about using a head tube reamer to shave off a bit more than the usual facing job? Instead of 6mm, try 2-3mm. If that's all you mean by "cutting the frame", then that should be fine.

Missed this question.

When I asked about how he would do it he said a facing tool would take forever to take that amount of metal off. So he said he would cut off with a blade/saw of some sort. Then face.

rootboy 02-16-14 03:42 PM

Just hoping he can get clearance for the cutter of his facing tool after he cuts down the lugs. But it sounds like he knows what he's doing.

JBC353 02-16-14 10:03 PM

AAACCKK!!! Whacking away at that frame for at best a minimal amount of threads makes no sense to me. Just lengthen the tube. Cut, sleeve, braze.

Old carpenter's joke. "I cut it three times and it's still too short."

big chainring 02-17-14 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBC353 (Post 16501659)
AAACCKK!!! Whacking away at that frame for at best a minimal amount of threads makes no sense to me. Just lengthen the tube. Cut, sleeve, braze.

Old carpenter's joke. "I cut it three times and it's still too short."

If all I need is a few millimeters and there is plenty of material on the lugs, why compromise the integrity of the fork? I have no problem with milling down the lugs. High end bikes tend to have quite a bit of the lugs trimmed away purely for aesthetics.
The bike is in good hands.

busdriver1959 02-17-14 07:43 AM

"Just lengthen the tube(steerer)". Easy to say. While some builders will do this, there are many very experienced custom builders that won't consider it for a second. Over at Velocipede Salon, a recent thread went on and on discussing this with the vast majority agreeing that it is a terrible idea.
The extra metal at the ends of the headtube serve no purpose as long as there is enought left to be able to use the facing tool. The builder in this discussion isn't going to do anything that wasn't done when the frame was built.

himespau 02-17-14 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveyates (Post 16500613)
I'm sorry but i don't have a smaller headset than that.
But i do have a serrated washer that is a lot thinner than the normal Stronglight ones.
You could use that then drill a hole in your stem to use as a cable stop.

Like this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cq9lWNvbDd...0/IMG_3108.JPG

I like this solution.

1987 02-17-14 08:16 AM

If you still want to have center pull brakes, the cable hanger can be excluded if you find brakes in the style of Weinmann AG 801:

http://i.imgur.com/umnAv8jl.jpg
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...A-5749913F0D1C

big chainring 02-17-14 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by himespau (Post 16502211)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveyates (Post 16500613)
I'm sorry but i don't have a smaller headset than that.
But i do have a serrated washer that is a lot thinner than the normal Stronglight ones.
You could use that then drill a hole in your stem to use as a cable stop.

Like this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cq9lWNvbDd...0/IMG_3108.JPG

I like this solution.

Yeah that is a great solution. If I didn't have a great mechanic/frame builder close by, that would be the way to go.

I kind of like the lug milling idea. I don't think its that big a deal. Appreciate all the ideas and comments, but I'll put it in the hands of someone that knows what he is doing, and has considerably more experience and knowledge than me. Not to mention the tools and craftsman skills.

vqstaphbeard 02-17-14 10:45 AM

I've used a facing tool to gain room for a cable hanger before. It worked great!

GrayJay 02-17-14 11:51 AM

These hangars clamp onto the stem, entirely above the headset. Not an authentic vintage restoration part but they dont look too out of place either.

http://problemsolversbike.com/produc...n_cable_hanger

noglider 02-17-14 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayJay (Post 16502910)
These hangars clamp onto the stem, entirely above the headset. Not an authentic vintage restoration part but they dont look too out of place either.

http://problemsolversbike.com/produc...n_cable_hanger

No, that hanger clamps onto the steerer on an unthreaded setup. Not applicable here.

dddd 02-17-14 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16503025)
No, that hanger clamps onto the steerer on an unthreaded setup. Not applicable here.

Yes, but don't they make one for a 22.2mm quill also?

So if one could massage one of these modern hangers into a more organic shape, and devoid of all anodize, it might even look good and would solve the OP's problem in a simple way.

But perhaps not as simple as just milling down the threaded race and using Loctite?

GrayJay 02-18-14 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 16503025)
No, that hanger clamps onto the steerer on an unthreaded setup. Not applicable here.

Good catch, still easy enough to add a 1" to 7/8" reducer shim (1/16" thickness shim material) so that the 1" clamp can work on the shaft of a quill stem. Rather than order a shim, it would also be easy to harvest a section of tubing from an old 1" fork steer tube, make your own shim for free.

GrayJay 02-19-14 10:45 AM

Here is a 22.2mm hangar clamp, sized to go right onto quill stem without a shim;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Tektro-B...item53ff80c3ac

Bianchigirll 02-19-14 10:55 AM

Is there a difference in diameter of the headset and steerer tubing? Why not just put a new and long English threaded steerer or threadless steerer on the fork?

Amesja 02-19-14 11:15 AM

I'd mill down the Zig-zagies of the rinko-sytle headset race nut which would give you a couple of threads right there. That shouldn't be too hard to do. Your frame guy should be able to rig up a jig with an old bit of scrap steer tube and do it with a grinder to start and finish off with his headset facer.

Get a thinner headset cable stop.

Then I'd face the headtube anyhow even if I didn't need the extra room because on older bikes I've found that most head tubes are more crooked than you would think. Facing them just didn't seem to be done by most builders and it does cause small issues with headsets not being as smooth as they could be if they are not perfect. Now that I have my own facing tools I tend to check every head tube and bottom bracket that I have taken down to the frame by putting on a ring of sharpie over the face and touching it up with the facer. It's a rare head tube on a vintage bike that isn't at least 0.5 mm crooked -some are even worse. I mill until I get the magic marker/sharpie totally removed all the way around the circle. This will give you at least 1.0mm just from doing a typical facing job top and bottom I would bet.

There is no "shame" in properly facing a head tube. In fact every bike that hasn't specifically been faced at the framebuilder (most aren't it seems) should be faced by any quality builder IMHO. Your headset will operate much better and the bike will be much less prone to headshake. Facing a head-tube is the right thing to do. Even if the tube is already perfect and paint-free if you do the marker-test so little material will be removed that it would take a very good digitial caliper to even measure it. What's a thousandth of an inch anyhow? Or 0.025mm? I face every headtube and BB just to check it if it isn't 100% that the last guy did it. Seeing paint on a face is abhorrent to me. Get that crap off.

Even if you had to take another 0.5mm off of each side here above what is needed to get it true there is no shame in that either. If this work is being done by a qualified frame guy then he isn't going to screw up the frame by "cutting on it." Those lugs are so meaty that even going as far as 2.5-3.0mm on each side would give you a ton of extra room. Considering that I bet you would probably have to take 0.5mm off of each side to "do it right" in the first place it's not the end of the world to "prep" this frame properly for its next life.

Amesja 02-19-14 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bianchigirll (Post 16509060)
Is there a difference in diameter of the headset and steerer tubing? Why not just put a new and long English threaded steerer or threadless steerer on the fork?

+1

Or just use a nice old ISO fork and headset and be done with it. The cup size of French and ISO are both 30.2mm. Even a JIS fork could have the crown race reamed to ISO and used as well.

Having the steerer unbrazed and replaced with a ISO 1" might work but I'm not sure if the fork crown is different for and ISO steer tube than a French. Maybe they are the same, maybe they are different. But even if they are the same this is getting to be expensive after the brazing and repainting. Might as well just have a framebuilder make you a custom fork at that point. Easiest to just find a nice used ISO fork and convert to ISO headset if he doesn't want to mill the head tube down. But either are OK as far as I'm concerned. It's not like this is some super-rare museum-quality bike he's rebuilding.

dddd 02-19-14 01:00 PM

I look at the OP's bike, and can't imagine he would ever go for a replacement fork or have the paint torched off his original fork.

Why mess this bike up? The fixes for the upper headset/hanger/locknut are adding up to an easy choice imo, not my choice to make but he has some wiggle-room for his own preferred fix at this point imo.

So let's keep this thread going, give the OP plenty of time to consider keeping things as original as possible!

due ruote 02-19-14 01:35 PM

I was under the impression that the OP already took the bike in to go under the knife, but I suppose these discussions are useful for the record nonetheless.

I don't see a problem structurally with the radical re-facing, but I hope the bare minimum is taken off for aesthetic reasons. I don't think the lugs will look "correct" if that border gets too narrow. Granted, one would have to do a pretty close inspection to notice.

In any event it's an interesting bike and I look forward to seeing it built up.


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