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Old 02-17-14, 09:54 PM   #76
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Kestrel 4000, or a Klein. Bought the Italian nashbar frame instead and built it up like a Klein.
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Old 02-18-14, 02:35 AM   #77
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I bought my first roadbike in 1986, a Jan Janssen Tour de France, nothing to special.
It was stolen a year later so in 1987 I bought a Jan Janssen Sallanches Racer, Columbus Aelle with Shimano 105.
In 1988 that one was also stolen, so bought a Jan Janssen Sallances Luxe, Columbus Cromor with Shimano 105. I liked this bike very much, lots of chrome, white and it rode great.

However I wanted a Vitus Carbone with first generation C-Record. Just did not had the money.
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Old 02-18-14, 03:11 AM   #78
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That was my conclusion after the shock of 80's electronic shifting wore off.. still though how horribly did it go that they didn't follow up?
looks like Suntour ended up getting exclusive rights to manufacture them in 1988 and came out with the Suntour "BEAST" (Browning Electronic Accushift Transmission) in 1990, but it was dropped by 1992. Suntour was about to take a dive due to Shimano's Hyperglide and probably didn't have any money for R&D or market clout to get manufacturers to spec if on their bikes. Plus it sounds *really* expensive. I never even heard of it being used on any production bike besides the Axis, and honestly i doubt Diamondback sold many



http://www.mombat.org/Suntour.htm

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Old 02-18-14, 06:11 AM   #79
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Trek Pro Series 560, 1987
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Old 02-18-14, 08:42 AM   #80
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No tubular tires for me, too heavy even then! I have a few bikes just prior to those years, but some were built over multiple years, and they are among my favorite bikes.

Own ---------------------> Successor/Preceding Model
85 Peugeot PGN 10 -----> PGN Reynolds 501
85 Trek 520 Cirrus ------> Same Reynolds 531
89 Centurion Ironman Expert -----> Same Tange 1

I haven't spent anytime in the saddle on these yet, but they would be great as well:
84 Schwinn Peloton (too small) Columbus SL
87 Schwinn Super Sport, almost completed overhaul
87 Schwinn Tempo, overhauled but unridden

I've got a 1986 Paramount, but that isn't production!
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Old 02-18-14, 09:25 AM   #81
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I bought my first roadbike in 1986, a Jan Janssen Tour de France, nothing to special.
It was stolen a year later so in 1987 I bought a Jan Janssen Sallanches Racer, Columbus Aelle with Shimano 105.
In 1988 that one was also stolen, so bought a Jan Janssen Sallances Luxe, Columbus Cromor with Shimano 105. I liked this bike very much, lots of chrome, white and it rode great.

However I wanted a Vitus Carbone with first generation C-Record. Just did not had the money.
I brought one back from France in '88, and built it all C-Record. Hated it. Sold it a month latter. Production I would have gone with a Panasonic. I was riding a Razesa, and a Masi (best bike ever) then.
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Old 02-18-14, 09:29 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by frantik View Post
looks like Suntour ended up getting exclusive rights to manufacture them in 1988 and came out with the Suntour "BEAST" (Browning Electronic Accushift Transmission) in 1990, but it was dropped by 1992. Suntour was about to take a dive due to Shimano's Hyperglide and probably didn't have any money for R&D or market clout to get manufacturers to spec if on their bikes. Plus it sounds *really* expensive. I never even heard of it being used on any production bike besides the Axis, and honestly i doubt Diamondback sold many



http://www.mombat.org/Suntour.htm
Thanks for that, I've often wondered why electronic shifting didn't manifest in the mainstream sooner.. it's not like it's hard exactly given all the other applications servos etc are used for. This also explains some odd "drivetrain" pictures I've seen in the past too. Does your axis have the browning on it still?
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Old 02-18-14, 09:51 AM   #83
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Does your axis have the browning on it still?
i WISH i had an axis! with or without that crazy front shifting system
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Old 02-18-14, 09:54 AM   #84
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i WISH i had an axis! with or without that crazy front shifting system
>.< Darn, I was hoping you did. After all you're close enough to warrant a field trip for such an exotic thing.
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Old 02-18-14, 10:00 AM   #85
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Originally underbuilt component group wise (LePree),
LePree is not bad stuff. Wasn't around long, but seemed to work fine.
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Old 02-18-14, 12:26 PM   #86
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...until he made a comment that he was surprised in a pleasant way that she didn't smell Korean.


"You don't smell so bad, babe ….how 'bout a kiss?"

…too much.
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Old 02-18-14, 12:35 PM   #87
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Dude - just opinions...that's what we do...give OPINIONS. I think DA 7400 gets a little too much love some times, and I think what you wrote was extreme. Saying it left everything else for dead, and that c-record didn't measure up at ANY performance point, was pretty aggressive. I just don't agree...I think there are a few ways it was a better group.

Most here know a lot more than me.

There was no offense intended.
I owned 7400. I owned C-Record. Here is my part by part appraisal:
  • Hubs. The cups and cones were both top end quality. C-Record has the nice grease injection port in the middle, although the dustcap injection ports in 7400 was easier to use. Removing the non-drive side dust cap in C-Record was miserable. A close victory to Dura-Ace.
  • Crankset: Both very high quality. Rings were easier and cheaper to obtain with Shimano. So the win goes to Dura-Ace.
  • Bottom bracket: Campy BB was alu with steel race. Shimano is all steel. You have to be very careful with the Campy cups, but it is lighter. When you factor in regular maintenance, n the long run, Shimano wins.
  • Brake levers. The Campy levers with the weird cable routing were stiff and featured poor leverage. In contrast, the Dura-Ace aero levers are still among the best ever. Light action and powerful braking.
  • Brakes. I had the Cobalto brakes. Which were better and lighter than the Deltas. Still inferior to the excellent 7400 single pivots. The 7402s are the best single pivot brakes ever. 7403 dual pivots are the best road brakes ever - period.
  • Derailleurs: the 7400 rear derailleur is the first completely modern rear derailleur. Great piece of hardware, for which the fundamental design has not been surpassed to this day. When matched with the indexed downtube shifters, it is a great system. C-Record and Syncro 1.... I had this on my bike for about 3 weeks, and it never worked. Even in friction. An expensive POS.
  • Seatpost. The one-bolt C-Record post with the 13mm bolt. This post has caused me some misery, including slipping at the worst possible time. Who knows why they went away from the two bolt design of the earlier post. Shimano posts have always been first class and reliable.

So a complete win for Shimano. Sorry, but I've lived through all of this.
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Old 02-18-14, 12:51 PM   #88
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I owned 7400. I owned C-Record. Here is my part by part appraisal:
  • Hubs. The cups and cones were both top end quality. C-Record has the nice grease injection port in the middle, although the dustcap injection ports in 7400 was easier to use. Removing the non-drive side dust cap in C-Record was miserable. A close victory to Dura-Ace.
  • Crankset: Both very high quality. Rings were easier and cheaper to obtain with Shimano. So the win goes to Dura-Ace.
  • Bottom bracket: Campy BB was alu with steel race. Shimano is all steel. You have to be very careful with the Campy cups, but it is lighter. When you factor in regular maintenance, n the long run, Shimano wins.
  • Brake levers. The Campy levers with the weird cable routing were stiff and featured poor leverage. In contrast, the Dura-Ace aero levers are still among the best ever. Light action and powerful braking.
  • Brakes. I had the Cobalto brakes. Which were better and lighter than the Deltas. Still inferior to the excellent 7400 single pivots. The 7402s are the best single pivot brakes ever. 7403 dual pivots are the best road brakes ever - period.
  • Derailleurs: the 7400 rear derailleur is the first completely modern rear derailleur. Great piece of hardware, for which the fundamental design has not been surpassed to this day. When matched with the indexed downtube shifters, it is a great system. C-Record and Syncro 1.... I had this on my bike for about 3 weeks, and it never worked. Even in friction. An expensive POS.
  • Seatpost. The one-bolt C-Record post with the 13mm bolt. This post has caused me some misery, including slipping at the worst possible time. Who knows why they went away from the two bolt design of the earlier post. Shimano posts have always been first class and reliable.

So a complete win for Shimano. Sorry, but I've lived through all of this.
Agreed for the most part.

FWIW The only brakes that I like better are Chorus Skeletons. The Centaur Skeletons are pretty nice as well.
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Old 02-18-14, 01:45 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I owned 7400. I owned C-Record. Here is my part by part appraisal:
  • Hubs. The cups and cones were both top end quality. C-Record has the nice grease injection port in the middle, although the dustcap injection ports in 7400 was easier to use. Removing the non-drive side dust cap in C-Record was miserable. A close victory to Dura-Ace.
  • Crankset: Both very high quality. Rings were easier and cheaper to obtain with Shimano. So the win goes to Dura-Ace.
  • Bottom bracket: Campy BB was alu with steel race. Shimano is all steel. You have to be very careful with the Campy cups, but it is lighter. When you factor in regular maintenance, n the long run, Shimano wins.
  • Brake levers. The Campy levers with the weird cable routing were stiff and featured poor leverage. In contrast, the Dura-Ace aero levers are still among the best ever. Light action and powerful braking.
  • Brakes. I had the Cobalto brakes. Which were better and lighter than the Deltas. Still inferior to the excellent 7400 single pivots. The 7402s are the best single pivot brakes ever. 7403 dual pivots are the best road brakes ever - period.
  • Derailleurs: the 7400 rear derailleur is the first completely modern rear derailleur. Great piece of hardware, for which the fundamental design has not been surpassed to this day. When matched with the indexed downtube shifters, it is a great system. C-Record and Syncro 1.... I had this on my bike for about 3 weeks, and it never worked. Even in friction. An expensive POS.
  • Seatpost. The one-bolt C-Record post with the 13mm bolt. This post has caused me some misery, including slipping at the worst possible time. Who knows why they went away from the two bolt design of the earlier post. Shimano posts have always been first class and reliable.

So a complete win for Shimano. Sorry, but I've lived through all of this.
Don't agree, and here's why:

Hubs. The cups and cones were both top end quality. C-Record has the nice grease injection port in the middle, although the dustcap injection ports in 7400 was easier to use. Removing the non-drive side dust cap in C-Record was miserable. A close victory to Dura-Ace.

A: Agree both are great. I give c-record the edge on apearance. Both worked fine.


Crankset: Both very high quality. Rings were easier and cheaper to obtain with Shimano. So the win goes to Dura-Ace.

A: disagree. Dura ace tarnished far more easily. Both work well, but I think c-record earns win on durability and aesthetics.


Bottom bracket: Campy BB was alu with steel race. Shimano is all steel. You have to be very careful with the Campy cups, but it is lighter. When you factor in regular maintenance, n the long run, Shimano wins.

A: disagree completely. Campy made a steel bb, c record is a racing group, like dura ace. As RACING equipement, c-record gets edge from me. Saying DA is steel and more durable is apples to oranges - you can get a steel campy group, it just wasn't c-record.


Brake levers. The Campy levers with the weird cable routing were stiff and featured poor leverage. In contrast, the Dura-Ace aero levers are still among the best ever. Light action and powerful braking.
a: disagree completely again, the DAs had a terrible hood shape, at least for me, and the blades got slick with hand sweat. Never had a problem with c-record leverage, but I have had issues with those plastic blades.


Brakes. I had the Cobalto brakes. Which were better and lighter than the Deltas. Still inferior to the excellent 7400 single pivots. The 7402s are the best single pivot brakes ever. 7403 dual pivots are the best road brakes ever - period.
A: disagree on single pivot vs delta. Agree they're better than Cobaltos, but deltas actually worked well if you set them up. They're more adjustable, with better modulation. I was price and mechanic confusion that sunk them more than performance. Dual pivots I agree were great, but I don't think anything works as well as a modern dual/single campy combo. The duals were great, but they do lack modulation to a point.


Derailleurs: the 7400 rear derailleur is the first completely modern rear derailleur. Great piece of hardware, for which the fundamental design has not been surpassed to this day. When matched with the indexed downtube shifters, it is a great system. C-Record and Syncro 1.... I had this on my bike for about 3 weeks, and it never worked. Even in friction. An expensive POS.

Mostly agree with a caveat - C-record was FRICTION - NOT SYNCHROS. Campy didn't think racers - the target c-record group- would want indexing. It works fine in friction on an appropriate freewheel, but I agree Shimano wins here. Personally, I'd rather use friction than DT index and I never liked the levers, so to me it's not a huge win, but I recognize that DA is the better system for most.


Seatpost. The one-bolt C-Record post with the 13mm bolt. This post has caused me some misery, including slipping at the worst possible time. Who knows why they went away from the two bolt design of the earlier post. Shimano posts have always been first class and reliable.
a: uhhhh...my Shimano aero post is a campy clone, one bolt, just without the refinement. It doesn't seem to work any better, it's just uglier.

For me - if going for performance - in 1986-88 I'd mix and match, which is what many did. I'd use DA's drivetrain, campy's levers, deltas, crank and headset.

Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 02-18-14 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 02-18-14, 01:49 PM   #90
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Old 02-18-14, 02:55 PM   #91
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I thought about this for a bit and I can't think of any bike I would like more than my Tommasini Super Prestige.

There is only one bike I would like to have from the 80s at this point and it is the early Merckx Professional that De Rosa was involved with when EM was getting the business up and running.

Yep, a silver one would be great. I think it is a 1980 or so.
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Old 02-18-14, 03:03 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I owned 7400. I owned C-Record. Here is my part by part appraisal:
  • Hubs. The cups and cones were both top end quality. C-Record has the nice grease injection port in the middle, although the dustcap injection ports in 7400 was easier to use. Removing the non-drive side dust cap in C-Record was miserable. A close victory to Dura-Ace.
  • Crankset: Both very high quality. Rings were easier and cheaper to obtain with Shimano. So the win goes to Dura-Ace.
  • Bottom bracket: Campy BB was alu with steel race. Shimano is all steel. You have to be very careful with the Campy cups, but it is lighter. When you factor in regular maintenance, n the long run, Shimano wins.
  • Brake levers. The Campy levers with the weird cable routing were stiff and featured poor leverage. In contrast, the Dura-Ace aero levers are still among the best ever. Light action and powerful braking.
  • Brakes. I had the Cobalto brakes. Which were better and lighter than the Deltas. Still inferior to the excellent 7400 single pivots. The 7402s are the best single pivot brakes ever. 7403 dual pivots are the best road brakes ever - period.
  • Derailleurs: the 7400 rear derailleur is the first completely modern rear derailleur. Great piece of hardware, for which the fundamental design has not been surpassed to this day. When matched with the indexed downtube shifters, it is a great system. C-Record and Syncro 1.... I had this on my bike for about 3 weeks, and it never worked. Even in friction. An expensive POS.
  • Seatpost. The one-bolt C-Record post with the 13mm bolt. This post has caused me some misery, including slipping at the worst possible time. Who knows why they went away from the two bolt design of the earlier post. Shimano posts have always been first class and reliable.

So a complete win for Shimano. Sorry, but I've lived through all of this.
I worked in shop from '84 through '96 and saw Shimano gain market dominace first hand....here're my thoughts based on your but from a mechanics perspective and from collecting/rebuilding/restoring for the last decade!!

Hubs: C Record was merely a re-tread of Record with difficult to work with aesthetic dust caps. Dura Ace hubs had mechanical seals while Campy had none. Advantage Shimano.
Crankset: Some more goofiness on Caampy's part....left hand threads? Campy's long term finish is better than Dura Ace but overall quality...stiffness, durability is about the same. Campy was using that odd ball 135bcd..Why??? Advantage Shimano
BB: Shmiano had mechanical seals. Campy had no seals. Advantage Shimano
Brakes: Superior ergonomics with Shimano. Advantage Shimano
Derailleurs: Shimano was the most durable toughest derailleur you could find. And it worked....the first time. Advantage Shimano
Seat post: Shimano put that little goofy set screw in the from of the post...I dont know if it helped with adjustments but I've seen more bad DA posts over the years than Campy. This is a wash.

some of the modern parts I'll put ahead of some of the older stuff....7700 calipers, 7700 hubs
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Old 02-18-14, 03:06 PM   #93
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For me - if going for performance - in 1986-88 I'd mix and match, which is what many did. I'd use DA's drivetrain, campy's levers, deltas, crank and headset.[/QUOTE]

Can't beat a DA or a 600 headset on a racing bike. There was no need to pay the Campy price.The Shimano was bullet proof.

As for the Deltas, I can't think of one guy I raced with that would monkey around with them. We were riding 7,500-8,500 miles a year at that point and no one on the local amateur teams ran them. As for the crank, it didn't matter much, as we had 20,000-25,000 miles on the bike at the three year mark. Moot point about one being worn out before another. The DA and the Campy crank would have been toast under full race and training conditions. Or at the very least, the rings were shredded.

As for the levers, I wouldn't have paid the premium for the Campy. A couple of good hard crashes and they were pulverized anyway. The DA levers were fine as I never rode the hoods and I didn't brake much anyway.
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Old 02-18-14, 03:24 PM   #94
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We did have guys who used Deltas - not many, but we did. I like them.

I'm aware the majority view is that DA 7400 was a better group - on the whole, I'd agree - but there were parts of c-record that I like more without price as a consideration.

The truth is that price played as big a role in the transition as performance. Would I pay the premium for a c-record headset? No - but if both were priced the sanme, I'd take the campy.

Sorry superman - I did brake and use hoods. We're not all superheroes

FYI - I used 105 - I couldn't afford any of this stuff. The truth is that I don't like c-record or DA from this period that much. I'd much rather use any Ergo group...or even earlier NR/SR. I'm not a fan of indexed DT shifting. I think 7400 is very overrated...at least c-record is pretty, and I'd much rather have deltas and Campy's levers than plastic and single pivot.

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Old 02-18-14, 03:58 PM   #95
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I'm interested to know more about tubesets from this period. I have three bikes: One is Columbus SPX (Serotta Nova Special X), second is Tange Champion #2 (RRB) and the third is True Temper (Trek 400). The Tange Prestige looks like a Columbus SL equivalent with slightly thicker and stiffer chainstays. I've been told that True Temper is stiffer than Reynolds 531, but don't really know any details on True Temper.

Any opinions on tubesets from this period?
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Old 02-18-14, 05:20 PM   #96
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Sorry, I'm in for 89 bikes; Kestrel 200Sc full DA, Miyata Pro or 1400 with full DA.
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Old 02-18-14, 05:56 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
We did have guys who used Deltas - not many, but we did. I like them.

I'm aware the majority view is that DA 7400 was a better group - on the whole, I'd agree - but there were parts of c-record that I like more without price as a consideration.

The truth is that price played as big a role in the transition as performance. Would I pay the premium for a c-record headset? No - but if both were priced the sanme, I'd take the campy.

Sorry superman - I did brake and use hoods. We're not all superheroes

FYI - I used 105 - I couldn't afford any of this stuff. The truth is that I don't like c-record or DA from this period that much. I'd much rather use any Ergo group...or even earlier NR/SR. I'm not a fan of indexed DT shifting. I think 7400 is very overrated...at least c-record is pretty, and I'd much rather have deltas and Campy's levers than plastic and single pivot.
I bounced off the ground much better when I was 25 versus 55.

Must of been all of that crashing on my Elsinore.

Last edited by gomango; 02-18-14 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 02-18-14, 06:14 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
Brake levers...I have had issues with those plastic blades.
What model of DA 740X levers were plastic? Aesthetically, the grey anodized DA shift & brake levers were not my favorite either, but you could always strip and polish them since they are alloy. Some models (BL-7402, I believe) had a chromed plastic divider between the hood and the lever, but all the levers themselves were alloy not plastic. YMMV.





(Forgive the ill-fitting hood. Point deducted from Shimano/DA for making 7401 levers incompatible with 7402 hoods.)

At the risk of continuing the thread derail: One last point about the comparison between DA & C-record cranks (I've used both quite a bit). The C-record design was not ideal in terms of possible overshift. If you lose a chain over the large ring on a C-record cranks, you run the risk of marring the beautiful finish, and having the chain getting lodged as it rides up the arm of the cranks, rather than hang on the edge of the arm at the base of the spider like most cranks. This is a complaint repechage has made about c-record cranks, and I agree. Here's a case where design trumped function.
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Old 02-18-14, 06:32 PM   #99
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Wow! Not one vote for a Puch! I've got a few and they are great riders!
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Old 02-18-14, 07:03 PM   #100
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1986 - I'd put my name in on the list for a custom Richard Sachs.... and I'd probably still be waiting.
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