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Old 03-03-14, 02:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post

On another thread here there was a discussion about Tenax so without repeating all that I said and few others about it please go here starting at post 121, mine, see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ad-bikes/page5 Read the followups because one poster pulled a website showing that Tenax was different then SL and SP, but we concluded, at least for the time being, that Tenax was SL and SP.
As you mentioned in that thread- everything that appears to be known about Tenax comes from supposition on forums. The only information that I know of that's come second hand are from Stan Cooper's email from Richard Schwinn and the info from Nova. What I know first hand about Tenax is that my 1986 Voyageur takes a 26.6 seat post. However, I know of other people that state their Tenax framed bikes take 26.8 and 27.2 seatposts.

That leads me to come to the same conclusion that Stan came to:

"I believe the Tenax label was applied to a range of specifications ranging from straight gauge seamed chromoly to higher spec double-butted seamless tubing is the often repeated specifications in the late eighties Schwinn catalogs."

For the record, I believe you're incorrect about the Reynolds 531CS tubeset being only used by Trek and for "a slight discount."
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Old 03-03-14, 09:28 PM   #52
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As you mentioned in that thread- everything that appears to be known about Tenax comes from supposition on forums. The only information that I know of that's come second hand are from Stan Cooper's email from Richard Schwinn and the info from Nova. What I know first hand about Tenax is that my 1986 Voyageur takes a 26.6 seat post. However, I know of other people that state their Tenax framed bikes take 26.8 and 27.2 seatposts.

That leads me to come to the same conclusion that Stan came to:

"I believe the Tenax label was applied to a range of specifications ranging from straight gauge seamed chromoly to higher spec double-butted seamless tubing is the often repeated specifications in the late eighties Schwinn catalogs."

For the record, I believe you're incorrect about the Reynolds 531CS tubeset being only used by Trek and for "a slight discount."
I'm not going to argue about what price breaks Reynolds gave Trek since we can't prove it but 531cs was originally made exclusively for Trek for the 600 series bikes starting in 1984, but Reynolds made a lot of those tube sets and some found their way into a very few custom builders; see: http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm where this is stated: Reynolds 531CS (Club Sport) frame tubing is first used by Trek. According to Terry at Reynolds-Cycle.com: "531CS was a special set, supplied mainly to Trek. The main triangle was butted 531 and the rear stays were CrMo (501)." The fork was taper gauge CrMo (501). (Info. provided by Dickey Greer.)

But as far as Tenax goes, there may have been a wide range but according to everything I've ever read what I said agrees with VeloBase which documents this stuff and not some forum which I also posted in that thread; see: http://www.velobase.com/ViewFramePar...c-896abd64ba6f And there was this too I had also posted that came from a report that derived it from Bicycling article, see: http://mauisvintage.blogspot.com/201...-revealed.html Not saying that Stan is wrong but his is the only thing I have ever read that way, so I'll tend to go with the way over majority on this.

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Old 03-04-14, 09:03 AM   #53
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I'm not going to argue about what price breaks Reynolds gave Trek since we can't prove it but 531cs was originally made exclusively for Trek for the 600 series bikes starting in 1984, but Reynolds made a lot of those tube sets and some found their way into a very few custom builders; see: http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm where this is stated: Reynolds 531CS (Club Sport) frame tubing is first used by Trek. According to Terry at Reynolds-Cycle.com: "531CS was a special set, supplied mainly to Trek. The main triangle was butted 531 and the rear stays were CrMo (501)." The fork was taper gauge CrMo (501). (Info. provided by Dickey Greer.)

But as far as Tenax goes, there may have been a wide range but according to everything I've ever read what I said agrees with VeloBase which documents this stuff and not some forum which I also posted in that thread; see: http://www.velobase.com/ViewFramePar...c-896abd64ba6f And there was this too I had also posted that came from a report that derived it from Bicycling article, see: http://mauisvintage.blogspot.com/201...-revealed.html Not saying that Stan is wrong but his is the only thing I have ever read that way, so I'll tend to go with the way over majority on this.
Regardless of what people assume- what you can say with any amount of certainty is that there are at least 3 different seatpost sizes associated with Tenax. What does that mean?

In regards to 531CS. I believe it was two years ago you said 531CS was 531 in the main tubes, fork and stays and you dismissed the very information you're posting for me here. ("I think either Trek lied about the 84 660 frame makeup or Terry is confused.") Where did you get the information that Trek received "a slight discount" for 531CS? You're saying "made exclusively for Trek," the quoted material says "supplied mainly to Trek." At that time Trek's 600 series bikes could basically be defined as a 531 main triangle with the fork and stays being comprised of "lesser" material. Meaning Ishiwata or Mangalloy before 531CS existed and then the 531CS tubeset completely filled that niche. I don't know what other companies were large enough to have that niche. I do know that Holdsworth, among other companies, used 531CS. In fact, you yourself said: "And the CS tubeset was not an exclusive tubeset to Trek like Wekipedia and the Vintage Trek site says; a very few other companies used it, bikes like the Coventry Eagle, Holdsworth, Claud Majestic, Barry Hoban, Geoffrey Butler, and probably others I can't think of right now." To which I replied:"The referenced materials say "mainly" to Trek, not "exclusively." My guess is that Trek produced at least twice the amount of 531CS bikes than all the other makers combined. Not that it matters."

The point is moot. This bicycle is not Tenax, it is a clearly stated SL/SP mix with a 27.2 seat post. The components used on this bicycle were the top of the line components and not sourced solely because of price point or a bargain or deal or some clearance sale. The supposition of these flagship touring bikes being specced with "piece meal components" insinuating that the lack of the use of a group set was based on a "discount" ("it wasn't a lot about what was the best but rather which supplier could give them the best deal then they pieced a bike together") instead of careful sourcing is completely and totally unsupported.
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Old 03-04-14, 09:08 PM   #54
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The quote I made concerning Terry and the Reynolds 531cs is based upon what was on my bike and on a Trek 760 here with photos to prove it; see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ighlight=531cs When I bought my bike in the summer of 84 I bought it as a frame and fork, there use to be a reynolds 531 sticker on the fork as is pictured in the above photo, Terry claims that 531cs was only the main tubes and not the stays and fork which in the case of the forks is untrue...some of the time, it is possible that Trek may had spec'd 501 for the forks but later changed to 531. It's not unusual for manufactures to change specs during production and wouldn't reflect those changes in the catalog since that would mean reprinting a new catalog any time that happened, so it's also possible that my 660 could have been issued that way even as complete bike since I got the bike in the late summer of 84, or it was a quirk when buying just the frame and fork.

If by chance Schwinn got a better deal to use Duopar on the rear derailleur and Suntour for the front for example doesn't mean the parts are second rate. Somehow you think I'm attacking your bike by mentioning that a bike company submitted contract bids for the best price on various parts from various manufactures, this sort of stuff goes on all day long in all industries! I'm in no way attacking your bike or insinuating your bike is made inferior due to price bids, I'm sorry if you thought I meant that it's just the way manufacturing business is ran.

I once had found a list of custom builders who did use the 531cs, I see you found that, I did mention a few select custom builders did manage to get their hands on some 531cs tubing was from everything I could find out 531cs was made to order specifically for Trek, anyone else using it simply got surplus that Trek didn't use...again, just to repeat myself, that is what I have come to understand about 531cs over the years, if you can find where 531cs was made before Trek started using it and thus was not made exclusively for Trek please share it.
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Old 03-04-14, 10:54 PM   #55
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This is like listening to Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.. If he were into bicycles.


Just ride it. It wont break even if it were made of sewer pipe.....As long as the sewer pipe has Renolds or Columbus written on it half of us will be impressed enough to ride it..

All in good fun..
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Old 03-05-14, 09:57 AM   #56
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This morning I received a reply from Columbus Tubi in Italy regarding the nature of the Tenax tubing used by Schwinn from the mid-eighties to the early nineties. With this rather specific reply from Columbus and the description on the Nova website describing Tenax as Cromor, I'm now fairly certain it's a flavor of Cromor.

In any case, without specific butting information, we can say with certainty that it is seamed 25CrMo4 chromoly, not SL or SP.

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Originally Posted by email exchange with Columbus Tubi
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Stan Cooper
Inviato: martedì 4 marzo 2014 07:32
A: info@columbustubi.com
Oggetto: Information Regarding Columbus "Tenax" Tubing Used By Schwinn Bicycle Co., USA, circa 1985-1992

Dear folks at Columbus Tubi,

If possible, I would like to obtain information about Columbus tubing labeled "Tenax", and used by Schwinn Bicycle Company from the mid 1980s through the early 1990s.

While tubing descriptions and specifications are widely available for most Columbus tube sets, information about the Tenax tubing used by Schwinn is mysteriously absent.

Thank you for any information you may be able to provide.

Sincerely yours,

Stan Cooper
San Francisco, California

-----Message Reply-----
From: Columbus Tubi
Date: March 5, 2014 12:07am
To: Stan Cooper
Subject: Information Regarding Columbus "Tenax" Tubing Used By Schwinn Bicycle Co., USA, circa 1985-1992

Dear Stan,
The Tenax was the tube-set made during the middle '80, those were actually the 3 main tubes, made like the cromor tubes in seamed 25crmo4, and double butted.

Good result in term of stiffness but was not one of the light tubeset line.

Thanks and best regards,
Andrea
COLUMBUS
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Old 03-05-14, 10:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by jjhabbs View Post
This is like listening to Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.. If he were into bicycles.


Just ride it. It wont break even if it were made of sewer pipe.....As long as the sewer pipe has Renolds or Columbus written on it half of us will be impressed enough to ride it..

All in good fun..
It is like a dork fight. But this is a dork fight where there's common sense and evidence that are being ignored and stuff just plain and simple made up.

I take great issue with people who post complete bull**** with great authority and make **** up. And then make **** up in my thread.

Part of the reason I take great issue with that- is because people reference these forums and use them for information- when people post bull**** with such self-importance- other people believe it. And bull**** fills the world.

1. He swore up and down his Trek 660 had a 531CS frame and a 531 fork and that 531CS is different for him. (he bought his 660 as a 660 frame with a 531 fork but thinks it came together like that from the factory- the picture he references here is a 700 series bike and has a 531C label, not a 531CS label)



2. When presented with every bit of evidence that the 531CS label doesn't specify 531 fork and stays, he said his has a different 531CS label and wanted ME to post it.

This starts at the end of page 3: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-vs-1985/page3

3. He posted something about the old Trek bikes: "odd numbered TX's were frame only, even were complete bikes" Which makes no sense at all. Most TX Treks were shipped as framesets throughout the country, those would have been shipped as TX200, TX300, TX500, TX700 and TX900. (even numbers) If they had components, the model number would have been based on the frame and component group. There were two odd numbered component groups- the 201 and the 907. There could not have been an odd numbered TX bike shipped as a frameset. But yet he had someone believe it. If he did mean 300, 500, 700, 900 as "odd" numbers- there were no "even" numbers except the TX200- which would have been shipped as a frameset.

4. He stated that Trek got "a slight discount" for using 531CS and then admitted he made it up: "I'm not going to argue about what price breaks Reynolds gave Trek since we can't prove it."

5. And then posts unsubstantiated garbage about top of the line bikes like "it wasn't a lot about what was the best but rather which supplier could give them the best deal then they pieced a bike together."


Again, yes, it's bike dork stuff- but it's really about completely made up, unproven bull****.
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Old 03-05-14, 10:06 AM   #58
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The quote I made concerning Terry and the Reynolds 531cs is based upon what was on my bike and on a Trek 760 here with photos to prove it; see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ighlight=531cs When I bought my bike in the summer of 84 I bought it as a frame and fork, there use to be a reynolds 531 sticker on the fork as is pictured in the above photo, Terry claims that 531cs was only the main tubes and not the stays and fork which in the case of the forks is untrue...some of the time, it is possible that Trek may had spec'd 501 for the forks but later changed to 531. It's not unusual for manufactures to change specs during production and wouldn't reflect those changes in the catalog since that would mean reprinting a new catalog any time that happened, so it's also possible that my 660 could have been issued that way even as complete bike since I got the bike in the late summer of 84, or it was a quirk when buying just the frame and fork.

If by chance Schwinn got a better deal to use Duopar on the rear derailleur and Suntour for the front for example doesn't mean the parts are second rate. Somehow you think I'm attacking your bike by mentioning that a bike company submitted contract bids for the best price on various parts from various manufactures, this sort of stuff goes on all day long in all industries! I'm in no way attacking your bike or insinuating your bike is made inferior due to price bids, I'm sorry if you thought I meant that it's just the way manufacturing business is ran.

I once had found a list of custom builders who did use the 531cs, I see you found that, I did mention a few select custom builders did manage to get their hands on some 531cs tubing was from everything I could find out 531cs was made to order specifically for Trek, anyone else using it simply got surplus that Trek didn't use...again, just to repeat myself, that is what I have come to understand about 531cs over the years, if you can find where 531cs was made before Trek started using it and thus was not made exclusively for Trek please share it.

Verifiably prove what you post in these instances is true- I'll publicly and sincerely apologize- I'll even take and post a picture of myself trying to fit my foot in my mouth. Otherwise, please stop making **** up.
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Old 03-05-14, 10:11 AM   #59
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This morning I received a reply from Columbus Tubi in Italy regarding the nature of the Tenax tubing used by Schwinn from the mid-eighties to the early nineties. With this rather specific reply from Columbus and the description on the Nova website describing Tenax as Cromor, I'm now fairly certain it's a flavor of Cromor.

In any case, without specific butting information, we can say with certainty that it is seamed 25CrMo4 chromoly, not SL or SP.
Holy cow Stan! That's the home run of detective work.
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Old 03-05-14, 10:36 AM   #60
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Verifiably prove what you post in these instances is true- I'll publicly and sincerely apologize- I'll even take and post a picture of myself trying to fit my foot in my mouth. Otherwise, please stop making **** up.
GO FULK YOURSELF ARSEWIPE.

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Old 03-05-14, 11:23 AM   #61
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GO FULK YOURSELF ARSEWIPE.

Don't bother mods, suspend me for life.

....just so everyone has notice, I have now trademarked the term "asswipe" tm.

So anybody here who wants to call me one in the future owes me a dollar. And my attorney is a shark
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Old 03-05-14, 12:34 PM   #62
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Holy cow Stan! That's the home run of detective work.
Dave, it still leaves open the question of the overly thick seat tube walls (small diameter seatposts) on Tenax Schwinn frames.

Stock 80s Cromor seat tubes had 28.6mm O.D. and are butted at the BB shell end. They have 0.9mm walls on the butted end and 0.6mm walls on the seatpost end. 28.6 - 2 x 0.9 = 26.8. Typically, there's a 0.2mm tolerance between the I.D. of the seat tube and the O.D. of the seatpost, so that would mean a seat tube with 0.9mm walls would take a 26.6mm seatpost. My guess is that Tenax frames have straight gauge rather than butted seat tubes with 0.9mm walls.



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Old 03-05-14, 11:31 PM   #63
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GO FULK YOURSELF ARSEWIPE.

Don't bother mods, suspend me for life.
That's much easier (and far more dramatic) than saying "you're right, I was wrong, you win."


With every bit of seriousness- I do not wish to chase you off. I actually do not necessarily wish you to say "you're right, I'm wrong, I lose, you are clearly dominant over my sorry (and dramatic) ass."

I would like for you to say- "hmm... the amount of evidence seems to indicate that the fork that I purchased with my Trek 660 frame, may not have actually been a part of the bike when it was built.

OR

I want you to say- "HERE is a pic of my 531CS decal (the only one in existence) that say says the frame, fork and stays are made of 531."

And

I want you to say- Hmm... "These catalogs do not say what I thought they said."

OR

I want you to say- "Here are the (verifiable) 1978 Trek TX200, TX 300, TX400, TX500, TX600, TX700, TX800, and TX900 that were shipped as whole bikes."

And

I want you to say "these bike designers seem to have specced these top of the line bicycles with the best components regardless of the manufacturer"

OR

I want you to say "here is the evidence that the designers got a bunch of **** on sale and threw those components on a top tier bike."



OR

Be a ****ing drama queen and never post your unsupported and unsubstantiated and completely untrue bull**** on this forum ever again.
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Old 03-06-14, 08:43 AM   #64
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I admire the way that Scooper always stays above the drama.
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Old 03-06-14, 09:16 AM   #65
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Just trying to keep what sanity I have left.
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Old 03-06-14, 09:24 AM   #66
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I really never thought this thread would go in this direction, I'm kind of surprised! (and just a bit entertained, and also saddened at the same time). I really think the Schwinn is a stunning bike, and I'll leave it at that.
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Old 03-06-14, 10:58 AM   #67
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Guys, I'm not a moderator, just a regular old guy. But I have to ask, does the need to be right and to puff your chests up when questioned really trump the matter at hand? People won't think less of you if you say something wrong. Nor will we think less of you if you just let go of something that is wrong.

Right?
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Old 03-06-14, 02:11 PM   #68
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I think you're right, noglider.

When I see/hear someone acknowledge a misunderstanding and/or subsequent mis-statement (or ambiguous statement), with subsequent attempts at correcting and/or understanding, it goes a long way toward showing their sincerity with the hope of improving the information bubble that surrounds any particular topic.

And over time, one can come to appreciate, even look forward to the challenge presented by other's viewpoints, again to the betterment of everyone's information.

But sometimes poster's expectations of other's replies cause an urgent need to close off further discussion, perhaps because the earlier poster has run out of time that they allotted for their part in the discussion, so terse or frustrated replies may ensue as a knee-jerk response, hopefully to be "mended" later.
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Old 03-06-14, 11:27 PM   #69
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Guys, I'm not a moderator, just a regular old guy. But I have to ask, does the need to be right and to puff your chests up when questioned really trump the matter at hand? People won't think less of you if you say something wrong. Nor will we think less of you if you just let go of something that is wrong.

Right?
Point taken.

I've been doing this internet forum thing for a long time. I know better. I do. ("arguing on the internet is like the special...")

I outlined why this bothers me so much. If I'm wrong- I want to know what I'm wrong about; I do not want to spread bad information or assumptions. I make the assumption that other people do too. I know I make errors, I know I make mistakes, I know I come to the wrong conclusions. But I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to recognize when I am wrong. Conversely, if I know I'm right, I'm right.

I torpedoed my own thread about my own beautiful bike because I refused to let go of some off commentary by someone I know is factually challenged. I'm sorry that it happened.
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Old 08-06-14, 01:07 AM   #70
Luckywrench
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Sight unseen, I followed up a craigslist ad today. At the end of the rainbow was a spray paint orange 1984 Schwinn Voyager SP. Aside from the seat and the horrendous aero-bars, it looks to be all original. One of the more hilarious points of the home paint job was the gear shift graphic with graduated step-bars indicating high from low gears. The last owner also gave his scrimshaw on the top tube ( right ). It is the most high end Schwinn model I have ever owned. I am stoked. Tomorrow I will run the serials to find if it is crime free. My karma just cannot afford the headache! I am so glad this thread is here. It was a quick yet deep study in the bike I purchased blindly today. Its going to take a lot of work, but it will be a keeper in the end. Did I mention that I liberated this bike for the great price of $75? I even kicked in a loose dollar bill for good measure. ( that will get the seller doing his computer research later ) Now the all important first photos.
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Old 08-06-14, 04:59 AM   #71
rekmeyata
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Sight unseen, I followed up a craigslist ad today. At the end of the rainbow was a spray paint orange 1984 Schwinn Voyager SP. Aside from the seat and the horrendous aero-bars, it looks to be all original. One of the more hilarious points of the home paint job was the gear shift graphic with graduated step-bars indicating high from low gears. The last owner also gave his scrimshaw on the top tube ( right ). It is the most high end Schwinn model I have ever owned. I am stoked. Tomorrow I will run the serials to find if it is crime free. My karma just cannot afford the headache! I am so glad this thread is here. It was a quick yet deep study in the bike I purchased blindly today. Its going to take a lot of work, but it will be a keeper in the end. Did I mention that I liberated this bike for the great price of $75? I even kicked in a loose dollar bill for good measure. ( that will get the seller doing his computer research later ) Now the all important first photos.
Those bikes don't get the credit they deserve, they were, and still are among the best touring bikes every made. The derailleur system they put on that bike was the best friction derailleur system ever designed for wide ranging gears...and I guarantee you it will shift as fast, if not faster, than today's STI crap. The frame was also the best frame back then for touring tied with Reynolds 531. According to specs that bike only weighs 24 pounds, todays touring bikes weigh right around the same and some like the Trek 520 weighs 27 pounds. You got a great deal for $75. Congrats, and I hope you enjoy the heck out of it, it's a beautiful bike.

By the way if you ever decide to use it for heavy touring and you're bothered with the ideal of reaching for the shifters while loaded, you can always put bar end shifters on, a lot of people converted touring bikes made back then to bar ends. Just keep the original shifters of course.
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Old 08-06-14, 04:31 PM   #72
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I've put countless thousands on my SP since I bought it new. It is a fabulously comfortable bikeMost so when I used 27x 13/8" tires on it...Which I can no longer find since Specialized stopped making them.
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Old 08-06-14, 04:48 PM   #73
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Love this era Schwinn.
I have/had a Cimarron,High Sierras,Circuit,Peloton.
A voyageur has been on my list for some time now.
One day I'll cross paths with one!
Excellent build. I really like the use of xc pro components.
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Old 08-06-14, 09:55 PM   #74
rekmeyata
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I've put countless thousands on my SP since I bought it new. It is a fabulously comfortable bikeMost so when I used 27x 13/8" tires on it...Which I can no longer find since Specialized stopped making them.
The 3/8th wide tire is nearly impossible to find except for few really cheap poorly made tires. However there are few really nice 27x1 1/4 tires which is only an 1/8th smaller. Schwalble makes a really nice puncture resistant tire called a HS159, and also a Marathon Greenguard with probably the best puncture resistance tread of any 27" tire on the market; also Continental makes both the Gatorskin and the Gator Hardshell in that size as does Panaracer in their Pasela line of tires which I use and really like on my 85 Le Tour Luxe that I use for weekend touring (except I use a 1 1/8th size on the rear and a 1" on the front, a 1 1/8th width is plenty wide enough for touring and dirt and gravel roads, but they do make a 1 1/4). Also Serfas makes a Seca in that 1 1/4 size.

The one thing I did notice about Panaracer is that the Pasela runs about 1/16th of an inch larger than the tire is rated, so my 27x1 is actually a 27x1 1/16th and the 27x1 1/8 is a 27x1 13/16ths, thus if that pattern continues with their 1 1/4 size you would only be 1/16th of an inch less than a 1 3/8th tire you like. There may be some of the other tires I mentioned that could also run wider. Keep in mind too that the 1 1/4 size was the size that came originally from the factory on that bike of yours.
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Old 08-06-14, 10:30 PM   #75
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I've put countless thousands on my SP since I bought it new. It is a fabulously comfortable bikeMost so when I used 27x 13/8" tires on it...Which I can no longer find since Specialized stopped making them.
It's all in the sizing honesty. The Pasela 32's on my Paramount measure 1.25 wide and are visibly much larger than the same listed size Specialized tire I've got on the front of my SS.
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