radiocontrolhea

Hey guys,

Just bought a frame on ebay and took a shot in the dark with it. It looks pretty solid and for the price i said why not (paid $200). It appears to have nice geometry without any brake holes or braze ons. I received the frame and was surprised to find that the dropouts are campy and all lug work is cast instead of stamped(which i was informed about from my lbs).

If you guys need anymore pictures or information let me know. SN on the bottom of the BB is: 2116

unworthy1

dunno who might have built this frame...but those look like standard BCM (Bocama) headlugs, so I don't think your LBS has it right if they think those are cast. AFAIK BCM stamped their lugs, but maybe I'm misinformed.

Bianchigirll 

I want to say a Schwinn Madison but I don't think that is right, but I thought they had that 'slot' on the crown. Lots of companies as well as custom builders built Pista frames and I surprised this doesn't have some sort of cartouche on it. That is something a lot of bike companies stopped doing in the mid to late '80s (or never did at all on lower frames) and it make IDing the frame harder later one once stripped of its decals.

Any idea on the threading on the BB? that may help narrow down US/English made or one of the Italian brands.





If that had a SuperBee Pro Pista group on it once it must have been quite the looker.

rhm

With the comparatively low serial number I'd tend to doubt it's from a big company like, say, Schwinn. And if I'm right about that, there may be only a few other bikes like it, so you won't identify it until you show the photos to someone who recognizes it. And that's not me; but carry on, sooner or later someone will.
In the mean time, more information would be helpful: bottom bracket threading? Seat post size? Is the serial number stamped on the fork steerer as well as the bb? Can you measure the frame angles? Are there holes for a head badge?

radiocontrolhea

Thank you guys for the quick and informative replies!

I was able to gather some information and have other questions.

The superbepro sticker is still on tact and on the frame and reads:

superbe pro
85 world champship v9
koichi nakano (who was a 10 time world champion)

How can I identify if the lugs are cast or stamped? every looks appears to have that "piting" associated with casting from what I was able to find.

The steerer tube is stamped with serial: 2116
Bottom Bracket serial: 2116
campagnolo dropouts (see attached)
BB threading: english
120mm rear, 100mm front
seatpost size: 27.2
1" english threaded steerer
54cm seat tube, 56cm tt -CC
75deg headtube, 74deg seat tube
the two headlugs (connecting to the head tube) appear to have some stamped numbers on both of them. the top one has 73 (see attached) and the bottom one has something I can't exactly make out, but it looks like OS, SO? (see attached)


The seller had informed me that she was told that there was a post on bike forums in 2008 with a frame similar to this but with a different serial number and had he exact same koichi nakano decal on it. I will try to look for that again but could it be a nishiki frame?

I have plans to sandblast and powdercoat the frame I will upload another photo of the fork lug, it looks very beefy.

Thanks again guys!

Bianchigirll 

It is most likely of Japanese origin after finding this. A little time on Wiki or the web in general may reveal a sponsor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koichi_Nakano

Koichi Nakano (中野 浩一, Nakano Kōichi[SUP]?[/SUP]) (born November 14, 1955 in Kurume, Fukuoka) of Japan is a former professional racing cyclist and ten-time world champion track racing cyclist. He is among the best track sprinters of modern times. He won an unprecedented 10 consecutive professional sprint gold medals at the UCI track world Championships from 1977 to 1986. He was one of the most successful competitors of all-time on the Japanese professional keirin circuit.


I would not sandblast anything until you know more. This could be something special it could be run of the mill but I would not rush into anything. The paint looks good anyway.

radiocontrolhea

I dont think the frame is run of the mill but I also don't think it's something special. If i had to guess it would be in between, perhaps a custom build frame. The koichi Nakano decal may just be a coincidence and have no association at all. However, based on the information I got from the seller, a similar with teh exact decal was discussed here on bikeforums. So it may just be a run of the mill.

I would like to identify if the lugs are cast or stamped though.

I was also told by another forum member here that Koichi only rode nagasawa frames, which are very different from this frame.

rhm

Do Japanese frames often have Campagnolo dropouts/ends?

Assuming the paint is both not original and that it's terrible (one or the other is not, in my opinion, enough to justify a repaint), then i don't see a problem with repaint. But if you want to identify it, I would be careful about sandblast. There may be traces of original graphics under the paint, which you'd lose.

I'd assume the 73 on the lug is the angle of the lug.

radiocontrolhea

rhm, I am in agreement with you that its unlikely for a japanese frame to posses campy dropouts. I bought the frame for a build because it possessed all the things i wanted in a frame but the things i'm slowly uncovering is really getting me interested to find out the origin. The seller believes it to be a built by a british building because of the typical double fork crown they used.

if it weren't for the campy dropouts or the cast lugs (which i'm trying to get a definitive answer to) i wouldnt have made this thread

JohnDThompson 

I wouldn't worry about that minutia; there's nothing wrong with stamped lugs. Investment cast lugs were first developed as a labor-saving device, not because they are intrinsically better than stamped lugs.

I suspect your frame is a retired Keirin frame, built in Japan.

JohnDThompson 

It's not unheard of for high-end Japanese frames to Campagnolo dropouts. A lot of Yoshi Kono's 3Rensho frames have Campy 1010B dropouts.

rekmeyata

Yes, a custom builder could select whatever lugs an dropouts he wanted to use, but Koichi Nakano in the 80s's rode Nishiki's from what I can remember and were custom built by Kawamura. Keep in mind Nishiki was just a label and not a company, but Nishiki sponsored Nakano so Kawamura custom built it then had Nishiki decals put on. By the way the serial number would be low even if it's a Nishiki because so few were built and the bike had it's own set of serial numbers because it was track bike.

rhm

I'm not arguing against the Japan hypothesis, but rather asking questions that come to my mind.

Radio, you're comparatively new to this forum. Have you figured out how to use the search function? If not, be of good cheer, few of us have. But if you want to find something specific, the way to do it is through Google. Limit your search to bikeforums.net in Google and try the most specific terms you can think of, and keep trying until you find what you're looking for.

When i look at the pictures of yours, i think of my own track frame, similarly an eBay purchase with evidently bogus branding on a presumably repainted frame. Mine has the same (or similar) lugs, different fork crown, seat stay treatment, fork ends, seat stay bridge. I eventually identified mine (i think) by sending photos to the right person mostly by luck.

Anyway, the question is: is that decal a red herring, or a legit clue? I favor the former, but what do I know. But. If it's real, and if this were one of Nakano's bikes, wouldn't we expect it to have Nishiki graphics?

Bianchigirll 

Just drill it powder coat it and get some cool neon rims.

radiocontrolhea

rhm,

I'm pretty good with searching and i've done that for both bikeforums inherent search engine and google with your suggested method. Haven't found anything. Well I did find something that may have resembled the same decal that is on my frame but the pictures do not show up on the thread (it was back in 2008). Like i said earlier, i woudln't have posted anything if i didn't think this was a decent frameset. I really do appreciate your guys' time in helping me out with the id. I will take your advice and strip the frame carefully before sending it to the powdercoaters to try and expose any previous decals or marking on the frame under the white paint.

rekmeyata

Over the years the decals could have came off. If the bike isn't legit why do just part of a decal? Who would even know that it was a bike made for Nakano (no way to know if Nakano actually rode that bike, but probably more like a small run of track bikes were made for others to use on the track designed after the same bike Nakano used) why not mention that to bring a higher price? I doubt the seller even knows anything about the bike. The other option was that the bike was raced by someone else but wasn't sponsored by Nishiki so they took those decals off, this sort of thing goes on today where either the decals come off or the item is rebadged to reflect the sponsor. I could be wrong about the bike but I don't think I am, unfortunately Nishiki as I know it is out of business so it would be difficult to find out by serial number if this is the case.

repechage

The fork crown is one I have always associated with a British mfg. Or, some small American builder shave used them from time to time. Haden comes to mind but it may not be. The domes stay and blade ends are also a British thing. The Lugs are BCM, no doubt about it, 73 and 60 is the inclusive angle as they were stamped to match.

I think the transfer is a red herring, supplied by Suntour with the Supurbe Pro track cranks or ensemble from time to time.

Now to get more info from the "hive mind" take some images of the BB shell including the inside and the seat lug ears.

radiocontrolhea

ask you asked

radiocontrolhea

Ttt

rekmeyata

I no longer think it's a Nishiki based on the seat lug and the stay spoons, Nishiki spoons were long tapered not just chopped short. I'm now leaning toward so cheap knockoff as well.