Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Frame to race on?

    Im interested in putting together a vintage frame with some modern parts to race with. what older frames have a decent amount of stiffness and are not too hard on the wallet? also, i have heard that older generations of bikes have a lower bottom bracket clearance, which makes riding in corners dangerous. is there a way around this? or a frame with a higher clearnace?

  2. #2
    Senior Member obrentharris's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    My Bikes
    fewer (n-1)
    Posts
    771
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Tell us a little more about what type of racing. Road races? Criterium? MTB? CX?

    If you are doing a lot of very tight cornering, pedaling through the corners, as in criteriums, you will want a relatively higher bottom bracket than if you are more concerned with keeping your center of gravity low for winding road descents. Vintage bikes racing bikes were made both ways. I have very little experience with modern racing bikes so I will let others address their BB heights.

    In Cyclocross racing the trend has been in exactly the opposite direction from the one you describe. Vintage 'cross bikes almost universally had fairly high bottom brackets for pedaling through ditches and on rough terrain. Now days most courses are fairly fast with relatively smoother surfaces so the BB height has dropped on many bikes.
    Brent

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    thanks for the info. im interested in crits and road races. so ill probably have to find something in between low and high for the bottom bracket. can i determine the stiffness of a bike based on its tubing? i have a tange 2 centurion and it feels a lot more flexible than my aluminum bike,

  4. #4
    What??? Only 2 wheels? jimmuller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boston-ish, MA
    My Bikes
    '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '72 Bertin C32, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, '86 Gazelle champion mondial, and lots of uncertainty on some
    Posts
    8,378
    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    ucd, what you are asking is sort of like asking which car to buy. Or which guitar. There is no best, and the differences from bike to bike or model to model are significant. With a dozen or more major manufacturers and zillions of small builders, it would be hard to draw any generalities.
    Real cyclists use toe clips.
    jimmuller

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    im just looking for something that is stiff with a fairly high bottom bracket clearance. i dont mind the maker as long as it fulfills the criteria and fits me. i was sort of looking for a few bikes to go from, or some information that can narrow down my search.

  6. #6
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Francisco California
    My Bikes
    Waterford 953 RS-22
    Posts
    9,202
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Since all steels have virtually the same Young's modulus, two things make steel frames stiffer: larger diameter (OS) tubing and thicker walled tubing.

    I'd be looking for a 90s frame with OS tubing and 130mm rear OLD spacing for the newer components you want to use, and depending on your frame size, weight, and power output, thicker walled tubing (there is such a thing as being too stiff). Most race bikes have ~70mm BB drop and short chain stays (~405mm for 700c wheels).
    - Stan

  7. #7
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Francisco California
    My Bikes
    Waterford 953 RS-22
    Posts
    9,202
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How tall are you, what do you weigh, and what length crank arms do you use?

    EDIT - Are you at Davis?

    Tange 2 is standard diameter tubing with 0.9/0.6/0.9 walls, so OS diameter tubing with similar wall thickness will be noticeably stiffer.
    Last edited by Scooper; 03-14-14 at 09:51 PM.
    - Stan

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    How tall are you, what do you weigh, and what length crank arms do you use?

    EDIT - Are you at Davis?

    Tange 2 is standard diameter tubing with 0.9/0.6/0.9 walls, so OS diameter tubing with similar wall thickness will be noticeably stiffer.
    yes i go to davis. im about 6 ft, 160 lb. not sure what crank arm length but i ride a da 7700 crank if that helps. this build will probably be a long term project because gathering all the materials will take some time and money

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern Maryland
    My Bikes
    1971 Mercier 300, 1977/78 Colnago Mexico, 1982 Pinarello Italia, 198? Raleigh Team 753, NOS Tesch 101, 1983 Peugeot Mixte
    Posts
    409
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You just missed out on a nice Tesch S-22 on ebay that was pretty close to your size. If you're looking for a crit bike, you'd be hard pressed to find something better for the money that one sold for.

  10. #10
    Fast+Bulbous thinktubes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,735
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Agree with the OS recommendations. An 853 frame might be pushing the boundries of vintage, but it would keep you in the mix.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,397
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by satbuilder View Post
    You just missed out on a nice Tesch S-22 on ebay that was pretty close to your size. If you're looking for a crit bike, you'd be hard pressed to find something better for the money that one sold for.
    I have an S-22 and it would be a great bike but, the rear triangle is narrow and the monster is so stiff that there is no thinking of spreading it that far, 122 mm original. That frame is not light either, but to me that is of little importance.

    I think a later Masi 3V might be a decent choice, oversized tubes, reasonably light and the later frames came in 130 mm rear spacing.

  12. #12
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Francisco California
    My Bikes
    Waterford 953 RS-22
    Posts
    9,202
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Match Cycle (Tim Isaac) built late nineties Paramounts are 853 OS and framesets are reasonably priced. The same vintage Pelotons are also 853 OS with the same geometry as the Paramounts, but were TIG welded instead of lugged and built in Asia.

    The reason for the crank arm question is that the longer the crank arms for a given BB drop, the greater the risk of a pedal strike. The late nineties Paramounts and Pelotons have 410mm chain stays and the 65mm BB drop should be plenty high to avoid pedal strike.



    This Peloton frameset with carbon fork went for $449 on the bay. It's probably a size or two too large for you, but it gives you an idea of prices.
    - Stan

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern Maryland
    My Bikes
    1971 Mercier 300, 1977/78 Colnago Mexico, 1982 Pinarello Italia, 198? Raleigh Team 753, NOS Tesch 101, 1983 Peugeot Mixte
    Posts
    409
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    I have an S-22 and it would be a great bike but, the rear triangle is narrow and the monster is so stiff that there is no thinking of spreading it that far, 122 mm original. That frame is not light either, but to me that is of little importance.

    I think a later Masi 3V might be a decent choice, oversized tubes, reasonably light and the later frames came in 130 mm rear spacing.
    Well, you got me there. Both the 101's I've had came with spacing for a 7 speed freewheel (126?), but there is a considerable difference in the chainstays. Widening the rear triangle on an S-22 is probably not an option.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Coeur d Alene
    Posts
    231
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I had a Bianchi Stelvio that was stiff as hell and tight geometry. Would have made a great Crit bike.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,397
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by satbuilder View Post
    Well, you got me there. Both the 101's I've had came with spacing for a 7 speed freewheel (126?), but there is a considerable difference in the chainstays. Widening the rear triangle on an S-22 is probably not an option.
    After my post I referenced that S-22 on ebay, someone got a deal in my view. But, the seller's size measurement must be off, I have a 56 and its head tube is considerably shorter, my guess that bike is a 58 at least. The root of the chain stays on this 22's was by far the biggest I have ever seen on a steel bike. The down tube and seat tube are very slightly conical. The bottom bracket shell is a cast unit and the tubes fit Over the spigots, Beef, it's what's for the winner.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,397
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    ... The late nineties Paramounts and Pelotons have 410mm chain stays and the 65mm BB drop should be plenty high to avoid pedal strike.
    I am of the opinion that if one is using most of the modern pedal systems and probably will be if racing, the BB drop issue is not that big a concern as it once was during the period where Campagnolo "quill" pedals reigned supreme. Using 170 mm cranks which might be selected for a criterium bike anyway… and even a 75 mm BB drop combined with mod pedals any one would be hard pressed to strike a pedal.

    Way back I had a criterium bike with an 11" High BB and 167.5 cranks, that combo gave me the confidence that I could pedal through or resume pedaling well before the competition could but this was 40 years ago.

  17. #17
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Francisco California
    My Bikes
    Waterford 953 RS-22
    Posts
    9,202
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    I am of the opinion that if one is using most of the modern pedal systems and probably will be if racing, the BB drop issue is not that big a concern as it once was during the period where Campagnolo "quill" pedals reigned supreme. Using 170 mm cranks which might be selected for a criterium bike anyway… and even a 75 mm BB drop combined with mod pedals any one would be hard pressed to strike a pedal.

    Way back I had a criterium bike with an 11" High BB and 167.5 cranks, that combo gave me the confidence that I could pedal through or resume pedaling well before the competition could but this was 40 years ago.
    I agree that pedal width as well as the crank arm length need to be considered together to determine the bank angle pedal strike will occur for a given BB drop. ...and you're right that today's clipless pedals are nearly always narrower than the rider's foot.
    - Stan

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Pearland, Texas
    My Bikes
    Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana
    Posts
    5,874
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ucd2016, I may've missed it, but you didn't specify a steel frame. If you don't require steel, a Cannondale or a Klein would be a good choice.

    Brad

  19. #19
    Senior Member Chrome Molly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Minnesota
    My Bikes
    I lose count...
    Posts
    1,826
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    In terms of stiff frames, I've ridden many of the 80's variety. IMO the super vitus 983 Gitanes such as the Tour de France can be just hammered on and they flex very little compared to something like the 531 cs offering. Just another option in case the oversized tubing frames mentioned don't satisfy your retro urges. Alternately, the 80's R series cannondales are some stiff ones also. Main difference between the TDF and the Cannondale is that the TDF will have a much better ride over the bumps.

    So many choices...

  20. #20
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern California
    My Bikes
    Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
    Posts
    4,021
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Listen to scooper.

    With so many possibilities, perhaps best to start by assessing your fit requirements, with a full understanding of how a bike's angles affect the fit, and how a bike's handling can be influenced by the frame's geometry and size.
    Bottom bracket height vs. crank length is just one consideration.

    A frame with a steeper head angle will usually retain good handling after a longer stem is fitted, but may become very twitchy with a shorter stem and/or higher handlebar.
    A steeper head tube angle and longer stem also will allow safer drafting before the threat of touching wheels becomes critical.
    Consider how frame size (top tube length) will play into all of this, in addition to how a steeper seat-tube angle makes any bike's top tube effectively longer.

    When it comes to buying a classic bike to race on, start by taking an ongoing, opportunistic look at your local market, you never know what will turn up.
    Always pick a bike that is priced so as to be saleable in a short time span, so if you don't like it you can sell it and get a different one.

    And most importantly, what bike/size/adjustments have been working for you so far, and at what level are you riding?

    Simply taking your existing bike through couple of "early bird" criterium races will tell you a lot about how your existing fit will serve you, and what changes seem likely to be helpful. It will be a struggle to hang on at the back, what with all of the exaggerated decellerations/accelerations which occur toward the back of the field, but you will learn more from that experience than I can begin to convey here. Watching the actions and reactions in front of you is a most important lesson when starting out, and you really don't want to be surrounded by a wildly-struggling cat-4/5 group while taking it all in at this early point.

    Frame stiffness is not a primary consideration at this point in my opinion, but at the same time I wouldn't by an Alan or other early "experimental" design.
    Any of the mid-priced steel frames should have more than enough stiffness due to thicker tubing walls.

    Lastly, I wouldn't race criteriums on anything that you'd be very sorry to have crashed on, but do make sure any race bike is in excellent mechanical condition.
    Last edited by dddd; 03-15-14 at 12:24 PM.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Southern Maryland
    My Bikes
    1971 Mercier 300, 1977/78 Colnago Mexico, 1982 Pinarello Italia, 198? Raleigh Team 753, NOS Tesch 101, 1983 Peugeot Mixte
    Posts
    409
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    After my post I referenced that S-22 on ebay, someone got a deal in my view. But, the seller's size measurement must be off, I have a 56 and its head tube is considerably shorter, my guess that bike is a 58 at least. The root of the chain stays on this 22's was by far the biggest I have ever seen on a steel bike. The down tube and seat tube are very slightly conical. The bottom bracket shell is a cast unit and the tubes fit Over the spigots, Beef, it's what's for the winner.

    The chainstays on S-22's are legendary. When they go up for sale they usually don't last long. Tesch bicycles in general don't seem to bring in the price other race bikes of that era do.

    Edit: Sorry, I felt like I hijacked the thread.
    Last edited by satbuilder; 03-15-14 at 02:40 PM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member OldsCOOL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    northern michigan
    My Bikes
    '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760
    Posts
    6,767
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
    ucd2016, I may've missed it, but you didn't specify a steel frame. If you don't require steel, a Cannondale or a Klein would be a good choice.

    Brad
    I was wondering when someone was going to mention C-Dale.

    Stiff, light, geometry.....what isnt to like about a Cannondale Criterium Series frame built to your heart's desire?
    Having a flat tire as part of the total cycling experience is highly overrated. Knowing how to fix one quickly is not.

    '85 Trek 460 road racer

    '89 Raleigh Technium PRE

    '79 Motobecane Super Mirage

  23. #23
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Texas Hill Country
    Posts
    2,359
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ucd2016 View Post
    i have heard that older generations of bikes have a lower bottom bracket clearance, which makes riding in corners dangerous. is there a way around this? or a frame with a higher clearnace?
    You heard sheer utter nonsense, whoever you "heard" that from should be pissed-upon from a great height.

    Designers of racing framesets "back when" were not unaware of the limits of adhesion, lean angles or crankarm length and built framesets suitable for competition. If Merckx or LeMond could manage to get through a corner on one they might just do for local racing today.

    It was/is up to the rider to learn proper cornering and handling techniques, learning the fast line and managing energy is what matters not an extra pedal stroke.

    Scooper has it right in recommending a less classic design w/ 130 spacing to use modern drivetrain components.
    A more elderly classic will command higher prices from the nostalgic and collectors but would not get you around any faster and would cause more of a cringe in the inevitable wreck.

    The most important element in race bike hardware is The Fit, make triple sure of that and proceed.
    It's not about the hardware, and never has been.

    -Bandera
    Last edited by Bandera; 03-15-14 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Fit
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  24. #24
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    My Bikes
    Terraferma 650b, Mondonico SL and ELOS, Masi Gran Criterium, Trek 610, Breezer Liberty, Georgena Terry Classic
    Posts
    11,422
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    I have an S-22 and it would be a great bike but, the rear triangle is narrow and the monster is so stiff that there is no thinking of spreading it that far, 122 mm original. That frame is not light either, but to me that is of little importance.

    I think a later Masi 3V might be a decent choice, oversized tubes, reasonably light and the later frames came in 130 mm rear spacing.
    Along the same lines, an OS Mondonico might be a good choice. I found an ELOS within the past year (bought it!), and have seen at least one Columbus SL frame in 130 mm, one recently on Ebay. These are billed as stage-race bikes, more for open road racing than crits, I would think. I don't race, but I really like the way they ride. They are pretty true to size - 54 cm has a 54 cm seat tube c-c. Typical (my two Mondos) BB drop is 7.5 cm.

    Two pricier options would be Richard Sachs and DeRosa. Both design road race bikes with 8 cm BB drops. In long stages like a 250 km section of the TdF, one can frequently coast through corners if lean is an issue. Both builders claim better handling with lower BB.
    Last edited by Road Fan; 03-15-14 at 03:23 PM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    579
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    To expand on what Bandera said, I think it's a common sales technique to find out what qualities you are looking for in a used bike, claim that those qualities cannot be found in anything but a new bike and then sell you the "latest and greatest". Was it a salesperson at a bike shop who told you that all vintage bikes have low bottom brackets?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •