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-   -   is this a Paramount? (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/947676-paramount.html)

GordoTrek 05-12-14 06:01 AM

is this a Paramount?
 
11 Attachment(s)
this frame has been hiding out at the coop, i decided to do a little investigating, it has a DA7400 crankset and shimano 600 headset, along with shimano dropouts, unfortunately somebody had some creative time with it, and now it looks like it belongs in a circus,, it has a dime size dent on the downtube, which makes me think its lighter tubing.. possibly reynolds or columbus, my experience with reynolds 531 is that it dents easily
the sn, is 9000 WJ 86019, not sure if the first nine is a 9 or 5, couldn't tell.

here are some pics, some are really blurry i was up late taking them..
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379840http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379841http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379842http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379843http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379844http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379845http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379846http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379847

my early thoughts that if it is a paramount its likely a mid 80's with the recessed nut for the brakes.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379848http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379849http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379850

pastorbobnlnh 05-12-14 06:32 AM

The decals and paint are all wrong as you noted.

The chrome chainstay, rear brake bridge, and seat cluster/lug look very much the same as a Waterford Paramount. The crown on the fork does not look correct. Unfortunately I don't have any good pictures of my '83 Paramount to compare with your examples.

Have you looked for a serial number? I'm guessing the one pictured is from 1985 or later. The serial number should be on the bottom of the BB shell. A Paramount serial number is very specific.

GordoTrek 05-12-14 06:34 AM

i think its an 89...
Waterford Built 1989 Schwinn Paramount Road Bike Dura Ace 7402 Very Original | eBay

found this little beauty.. holy crap it really is a paramount!!

GordoTrek 05-12-14 06:35 AM

thanks pb, the serial is in the original post, it was hard to make out, after i scraped the house paint off,

Quote:

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 16750459)
The decals and paint are all wrong as you noted.

The chrome chainstay, rear brake bridge, and seat cluster/lug look very much the same as a Waterford Paramount. The crown on the fork does not look correct. Unfortunately I don't have any good pictures of my '83 Paramount to compare with your examples.

Have you looked for a serial number? I'm guessing the one pictured is from 1985 or later. The serial number should be on the bottom of the BB shell. A Paramount serial number is very specific.


TimmyT 05-12-14 06:42 AM

Determine the Manufacturing Date

Your S/N is a bit funny, but others here know Paramounts better than I do. Bob is right about the fork crown. The 89 you linked to has a different fork crown, but some builders use as many as 3 to 5 crowns at any one time for different reasons (aesthetics, ride, drilling, etc).

GordoTrek 05-12-14 06:51 AM

i believe its an 89.. what do you think? the fork crown matches, as does the crank/shifters and headset

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyT (Post 16750477)
Determine the Manufacturing Date

Your S/N is a bit funny, but others here know Paramounts better than I do. Bob is right about the fork crown. The 89 you linked to has a different fork crown, but some builders use as many as 3 to 5 crowns at any one time for different reasons (aesthetics, ride, drilling, etc).


pastorbobnlnh 05-12-14 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordoTrek (Post 16750464)
thanks pb, the serial is in the original post, it was hard to make out, after i scraped the house paint off,

Oops! :eek: I missed the SN. My bad! 9000 WJ 86019 does look like a Waterford Paramount SN. Skip the "9000" for a moment. "WJ" equates to Waterford-September, "86" equates to 1986, and "019" equates to the 19th frame that month. You say the "9" in 9000 could be a "5." This is the frame size number, and a "5" would mean it is a 50 something cm frame, which it looks to be. Reexamine this part of the number and see if it is not a "56xx" etc.

A picture would be helpful. Try rubbing a very light coat of wax or polish in the numbers before taking the pictures. Waterford SN are very hard to see. Here is the one in my '83. They were still placing them on the left rear dropout at this point. The change to the BB shell would occur in late '84.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...psf053d053.jpg

GordoTrek 05-12-14 06:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
i think the fork crowns match?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=379857

miamijim 05-12-14 07:11 AM

The forks a dead ringer for the '86/7 I owned.

GordoTrek 05-12-14 07:12 AM

now i am confused, the fork crown makes me think its a later model, but the SN obviously points to it being an 86,
Waterford Schwinn Paramount 1986 Period Correct Original Shimano 600 Parts | eBay
this looks like the bike too, except the forks, maybe it was built with different forks?

at the end of the day we can confirm it probably is a paramount

miamijim 05-12-14 07:14 AM

No. The blue one has a semi-sloping crown. The op's is flat.

GordoTrek 05-12-14 07:14 AM

good to hear, any pics by chance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamijim (Post 16750541)
The forks a dead ringer for the '86/7 I owned.


seedsbelize 05-12-14 07:14 AM

You did mention that somebody had some creative time with it. This could explain the odd fork. Unfortunately I cannot access the site at all on Google, this morning, and I can't look at pics on IE.

GordoTrek 05-12-14 07:19 AM

honestly, i don't really care so much as what the year is, just if it is a paramount or not, this frame has been hanging out at the coop for awhile, its been kind of a joke, nobody thought it really was a parmount, but the fact that it had DA cranks on it, made us all pause, i decided to take it upon myself to finally find out what it was.

thanks everybody for helping me figure out what this thing is.

pastorbobnlnh 05-12-14 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamijim (Post 16750545)
No. The blue one has a semi-sloping crown. The op's is flat.

Jim, I was thinking the same thing. All the Waterford Paramounts had a slightly sloping crown and this one is very flat.

Gordo, are the front fork dropouts Campagnolo? Or do they match the same brand as the rear? Have you pulled the fork to check for a SN on the steering tube? Most Paramounts have matching SN unless the fork was replaced at some point.

Waiting to hear more! :D

shoota 05-12-14 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordoTrek (Post 16750561)
thanks everybody for helping me figure out what this thing is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordoTrek (Post 16750463)
holy crap it really is a paramount!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordoTrek (Post 16750542)
at the end of the day we can confirm it probably is a paramount

At least one person is convinced lol.

GordoTrek 05-12-14 07:54 AM

im all over the place i know, the front and rear drop outs are both shimano, ill have to pop the fork off when i get home later

miamijim 05-12-14 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 16750597)
Jim, I was thinking the same thing. All the Waterford Paramounts had a slightly sloping crown and this one is very flat. :D

There were a few years they had exceptionally flat crowns....the white one is an '85, notice its flat and sloping with a very sharp edge.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...psbc0f749f.jpg

miamijim 05-12-14 09:01 AM

This repainted red and white is an '88....Flat crown with a slight slope, sharp edges and it has the two points on the side of the crown. And a black '87 with the same crown...flat, slight slope, sharp edge

The '85 has Campy portacatena dropouts, the '87 and '88 have Shimano...

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSC01704.jpg
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSC01683.jpg
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps9b05eb53.jpg

miamijim 05-12-14 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordoTrek (Post 16750681)
im all over the place i know, the front and rear drop outs are both shimano, ill have to pop the fork off when i get home later

It's a Paramount.... A tell tale sign is Schwinn's primer, they used a rust/red/brown colored primer, you'll see it on the fork steerer and inside the BB.

Not double mitered but it doesn't get much cleaner than this!!1

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSC01670.jpg

pastorbobnlnh 05-12-14 09:13 AM

My '83 also has the sharp edge on the crown, but it does slope.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...83-Caliper.jpg

Here is a Jan '84 frame from ebay. Notice the window in the side of the crown lug.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ecalchange.jpg

Also here is a Jan '85 from ebay with the same window.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ntBBonSFCL.jpg

Another view of my '83 with the window in the fork crown.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...t-83-decal.jpg

Obviously there must have been a change over in the fork crown style at some point after Jan '85. Hope all this is helpful.

miamijim 05-12-14 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh (Post 16750947)
My '83 also has the sharp edge on the crown, but it does slope.

Here is a Jan '84 frame from ebay. Notice the window in the side of the crown lug.

Another view of my '83 with the window in the fork crown.

Obviously there must have been a change over in the fork crown style at some point after Jan '85. Hope all this is helpful.

The 'window' crowns have much more slope and I think the top surface has a slight convex to it. The post '85 crown without the window but with the 2 points have much less slope and top surface is very flat.

TimmyT 05-12-14 10:17 AM

The '89 crown linked early in this thread is completely different from the OP's. The OP's is flat with some slope. The '89 has a full on sloping crown.

Miamijim is all over it, though.

Scooper 05-12-14 11:02 AM

My '87 has a "semi-sloping" crown:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...IMG5073med.jpg

The first three characters of the serial number describe the frame size from the center of the crank to the top of the seat lug in millimeters, and the fourth character is alphabetic and describes the length of the fork steerer tube (A is the shortest, E is the longest).

My bike's serial number is 620E WK 87077 (620 mm frame with long steerer, "W" = made at the Waterford facility, "K 87077" = October 1987, 77th frame scheduled for production that month).

This photo was taken before the repaint:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...CIMG2343sm.jpg

After Dr. Deltron did his magic.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...ramountmed.jpg

GordoTrek 05-12-14 11:44 AM

thanks for all the help guys, so it looks like a late model 86, or maybe an early 87, don't know what the coop is going to do with, im sure they will sell as is, trying to figure out a price now.


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