rowebr

My 1981 Limited feels fast! So I'm not allergic to 022, consider sending your Limited to me for testing

OP, lots of good suggestions here. I would just add that if you feel something changed about the Fuji and its running slower than it did before, sounds worthwhile to do a checkup: hubs properly adjusted, BB smooth, pedals smooth, brakes rubbing?

RobbieTunes

Boy, that is accurately put. Nothing feels slower to me than a tri-bike ridden on the aero bars.

crank_addict

If I recall, my S12S-ltd had sealed / cartridge bearing hubs. Back when and new, it made sense for my use and long haul touring. Not racing -no hurry, wet riding and no maintenance. But today I wouldn't have it. Those aged hubs could be a drag from internal grease breakdown, etc. Changing the cartridge bearings on them has to be done with great care and end-play is sloppy. Lastly - consider tires with nominal rolling resistance. Huge factor.

Narhay

The foam grips subtract about 5mph. Also, the Fuji is caught in a tree. i have no further advice as everyone else has already chimed in.

squirtdad

sound dumb....but check for brake rub. I had a spoke pop, wheel went out of true, and I got slower, thought it was because I was taking it easy... but....was getting point of brake rub due to the out of true. I popped the brake quick release and effort went way down.

other than that, tires

Grand Bois

I agree that too high tire pressure won't slow you down, but I also believe that routing your brake cables in front of the bars will make you significantly slower.

bradtx

echo victor, Right now I have two touring bikes (same frame sets) where one 'feels' slower. I've also had this in the past with two nearly identical road bike frame sets.

The differences are so slight overall and mechanically the two are essentially perfect that I'm going to blame the color. The blue bike is 'faster' and I seem to prefer blue bikes.

Brad

PS The blue roadie was 'faster' than the black roadie.

etherhuffer 

Red spark plug wires on a car add 5 HP too!

echo victor 

Wow - thanks for taking the time to share all these great ideas! Also, thanks for the compliments on the bikes. Here's a slightly better photo of the Fuji for your visual enjoyment:


I rode the Fuji to work again today, and I pumped up the tires to 95-100 PSI (I typically keep my tires closer to 75-85 based on Sheldon's chart). It seems to have possibly helped just a little, so maybe it is a tire issue.

A few comments on some of the ideas (without intending to disparage any of them):

Placebo? I doubt this primarily because I first noticed this on a ride when I was totally expecting the Fuji to be just as quick as the Raleigh, and the reason it surprised me so much was that I had no preconception of the Fuji being sluggish.

Sensation of speed? Sure, it's possible that although one bike may give the sensation of riding faster, they might actually be no different in terms of time over the same course. I haven't got a cycle computer installed on either, so maybe I'll do that to assist in testing this. However, I figure the issue is perceived effort - if it takes me identical times to ride a course on two different bikes, but one of those bikes feels more effort-ful, then I'll naturally prefer the other.

Gearing? Possible, but I sort of don't expect this is behind it. On the same hills I find myself going for lower gears on the Fuji (even before calculating the exact ratios). Also, while going uphill I have a sensation of having low enough gears on the Fuji to get up practically any hill, while still feeling that the process is more sluggish. Another comparison: I also have a Raleigh/Triumph Gran Course, and it's an all-out racing bike - it's not set up to fit me ideally yet, and the gearing is steeper than I'd like, but I can get up the same hills on it in its (considerably higher) lowest gear, and it doesn't feel like it's fighting me. Plus that bike feels quicker and more responsive than the Raleigh GS, despite having harder gears to push. So maybe you could say the difference between the Fuji and the Raleigh GS feels similar to the difference between a sport tourer and a racer, almost as though the Fuji were a dedicated tourer to the GS sport tourer.

Geometry/Trail The Fuji is definitely lower trail, but I wouldn't expect that to be the reason behind the sluggishness, based on Jan Heine's appreciation for quick low trail bikes - I tend to think those are independent variables. As for overall geometry, they're both effectively sport-touring. (The Fuji has parallel 73 degree seat and head tube angles, but I haven't found details for the Raleigh. Does anyone have those?) Differences from seat tube angle should be lessened because I'm trying to match the saddle to bottom bracket offsets. Rear stays, maybe? I'll have to measure that.

Engine? Yup, it's certainly possible that I had an off day or something. (Wind/weather has seemed pretty consistent lately). That's why I'm going to try to take this process a little slow and why I tried the Fuji again today with just a tire pressure change (and whatever internal changes of the engine). I'm trying to be sensitive to how I'm functioning, but I may have to find someone similarly sized to do some Jan Heine style multi-rider switch off testing. @iab, if there's a place where I should be logging my bowel movements (some variation of MapMy__.com, perhaps?), please let me know.

Tires Plan to switch these around to test. Will let you know how it goes...

Fit? Good point. I've got the saddle location pretty well matched by yardstick, but I believe there's a little less reach to the bars on the Fuji (incidentally, the Fuji's reach is closer to what was recommended by a professional fitter). My next step on fit is to try to get more accurate about the current measurements on both bikes. The approach I'm thinking of is described by Steve Hogg and seems like a pretty solid way to get consistent measurements. Then I can try to dial the Fuji in a little further.

Repack/Service/Overhaul This could certainly be an issue. It's been a while since it's been serviced, so maybe I'll hold off on working on the Raleigh and instead overhaul the Fuji first to see whether that makes a difference.

Next steps:
I think I'll start with switching out the wheels (might be limited to just switching tires in the rear, since the hub spacing might be different), as that should be both easy and a pretty quick way to eliminate or confirm wheels/tires as a root cause. Then I think I'll remove the rear rack - doubtful the extra weight is what I'm feeling, but maybe it's stiff enough to be interfering with "planing" in the stays/seat tube (also doubtful...). Next I'll see about matching the fit better over the weekend (or as close as I can reasonably get). And after that I'll proceed with tear down and overhaul.

I'll post back and let you all know if I make any progress. Thanks again, and please feel encouraged to share any other ideas or comments.

CroMo Mike 

When one bike is 2 lbs. heavier than another, one has to ask where that weight resides. A frame that is one lb. heavier is also likely less responsive and would "feel" slower. Likewise wheels and tires carrying extra weight. Also, all chrome moly and/or butted tubes are not equal. Some can feel less responsive, therefore feel slower. Now if one seat post or saddle is heavier, I don't see much difference in "feel".

sailorbenjamin

How about frame and fork alignment? At one point I had a Trek 612 (531) and a Trek 412 (022) The 412 was a real dog. Nearly identical frames, just different steel, wheels and components. I tried swapping the wheels, not much change. Then I got into the frame alignment game. Some real careful measurements revealed that the rear end was several millimeters to one side and the fork was tweeked by a couple of millimeters, too. You could hardly see it. Once I got everything straight, the 412 and the 612 were indestinguishable to my butt.
I sold them both, though because the Raleigh Supercourse just blew them both out of the water.
I think it's just a Raleigh thing.

bradtx

echo victor, Are the crank arms the same length on both bikes? I'm not sensitive to crank arm lengths, but some are...

Brad

bradtx

A couple of pounds of difference in static weight doesn't make much difference when factoring in the rider's weight. It can be noticeable if the weight difference is rotational and primarily situated in the rims and the tires.

Brad

Beic

Now that's interesting.

I was thinking of changing from 700c wheels to 27 x 1 1/4, I've not heard of anyone who has done this retro reverse

My reason is that its becoming difficult over here to find period looking 700c wheels as I don't want to use new alloys.

I understand the brakes may need changing, interesting to hear of someone who has done it.

Beic

Bicycle Addict

I with the possibility of a little too much cone/bearing tension?

jimmuller 

I put 27x1 1/4" wheels/tires on the Bertin after trying 700c. It has never been a fast-feeling bike. It also has a low BB. The larger wheel and tires raised it up a bit and helped the handling. It still isn't fast but it feels more utilitarian.

Beic

I may well do it, the bike is an entry model sports/tourer from the 80's which I'm upgrading, but want to keep the period look and not spend too much.

Beic

Bikedued

I have an 022 Trek 510, that is sitting on 23c Gatorskin tires. One of the quickest feeling, and effortless riding bikes in my garage. It also weighs 24 pounds and 1 ounce. I did have a Shogun Alpine GT touring bike that felt slow as molasses. The wheels spun freely, no brake rub, or anything that should have made it slow. It just seemed like the effort I put out was wasted on that bike. I finally started spinning a larger gear rather than trying to hammer it, and it improved somewhat. I ultimately sold it though.,,,,BD

The Golden Boy 

The reason I did it was just because I wanted to use some Shimano TriColor brakes- which were apparently only available as short reach. So to use short reach brakes, I had to use a larger rim size.

When I did switch, I couldn't really tell *what* was different- just that it rode much nicer.

noglider 

Each piece of advice here is worth pursuing, though you may not be able to pursue all of it.

However, the frames could be different enough in design and materials and weight to account for the difference. Raleighs of that vintage and style have light steering front ends which give the bike a light feel.

Then again, it could be something as simple and concrete as fit, such as reach between seat and handlebars. And that is one thing that is difficult to experiment with.

I had a Gran Sport long ago and currently have a Super Course. I've ridden Fujis. In fact, I just built up an S10-S for a friend. I strongly prefer the Raleigh. It could just be a matter of taste. The Fuji is nice, with neutral handling. The Raleigh puts a smile on my face.