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Old 07-11-14, 06:56 PM   #1
CastleDerosa
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My New ride 1992 Gardin

Bought with intention to ride and race from original owner who had the frame custom made , 61cm seat tube - 58cm race geometry and super light weight ..1992 Gardin 12 speed , c-record equiped , Cinelli BB , Campy drop-outs , Mavic gp4 red label tubular with mavic rear hub , stronglight headset , Cinelli stem/bars 66-44 . Color seems to be incadescent lime and very rare ..i will post pics !

Anyhow to my dissapointment it seems a bit too big for me but will try to adjust it in any way possible . What do you think , any input ?
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File Type: jpg Gardin (5).jpg (104.8 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg Gardin (6).jpg (98.4 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg Gardin (13).jpg (101.0 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg Gardin (15).jpg (97.9 KB, 42 views)
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Old 07-11-14, 07:10 PM   #2
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CastleDerosa-

If the seat height shown in the photo fits you now, then the bike is about right sized. Check fitting info from the 70s rather than the undersizing nonsense out there these days. given the extreme lowness of the stem/bar, you are a very flexible fellow. If not, then try about an inch lower than the saddle. The bike itself is lovely and it would be a shame to sell it on if it really does fit.
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Old 07-11-14, 07:27 PM   #3
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Wowza. That is definitely one of the nice ones. Nice equiment on it, too.

Just my size, as well. A little jealous.

I'm a bit amused that the TT reads 'hand crafted by Joe Gardin'. I've been led to believe that Joe was the boss, but mostly 'handcrafted' business deals (not all of which ended well) rather than wielding a brazing torch. Not quite the same as the signature of Giuseppe Marinoni or Mike Mulholland, where it indicates the hand that made it all come together...
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Old 07-11-14, 07:39 PM   #4
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I don't have much to contribute other than that's the nicest Gardin I've seen, and I've seen a few ( and owned one, but in different league from this bike).
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Old 07-12-14, 03:16 AM   #5
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Nice.
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Old 07-12-14, 03:27 AM   #6
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CastleDerosa-

If the seat height shown in the photo fits you now, then the bike is about right sized. Check fitting info from the 70s rather than the undersizing nonsense out there these days. given the extreme lowness of the stem/bar, you are a very flexible fellow. If not, then try about an inch lower than the saddle. The bike itself is lovely and it would be a shame to sell it on if it really does fit.
The seat height is not the problem ..should have mentioned but in fact the toptube which is 58cm and of long reach specially with the 110mm stem ! I am most comfortable on a 56cm frame but couldn't let this one pass as its in 'like new' condition !
The pics are crappy to say the least as it really has the nicest paint job i've owned on a second hand bike ..the original owner took great care of his ride troughout the years .

I will ride it for a while and decide whether to keep or sell ! thx for the input ..
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Old 07-12-14, 04:13 AM   #7
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The owner also mentioned he bought the frame back then for over $1000 alone ... ! I wasn't surprise he was reluctant on selling .
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Old 07-12-14, 04:35 AM   #8
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I agree beautiful bike.

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Old 07-12-14, 06:01 AM   #9
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I'll join the chorus of "that' the nicest Gardin"

If you most comfortable on a 56, this bike is too big. We've all been there - sell it to some bigfoot who'll enjoy it.
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Old 07-12-14, 07:40 AM   #10
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I'll join the chorus of "that' the nicest Gardin"

If you most comfortable on a 56, this bike is too big. We've all been there - sell it to some bigfoot who'll enjoy it.
Yeah ..probably never will fit just right !! I might just do that eventually if i find someone interested enough to buy and willing to give it a good home .
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Old 07-12-14, 07:41 AM   #11
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The stem is actually 130mm not 110mm like stated previously ..i was thinking of 110 to replace with when i was writting !
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Old 07-12-14, 08:23 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by CastleDerosa View Post
The seat height is not the problem ..should have mentioned but in fact the toptube which is 58cm and of long reach specially with the 110mm stem ! I am most comfortable on a 56cm frame but couldn't let this one pass as its in 'like new' condition !
The pics are crappy to say the least as it really has the nicest paint job i've owned on a second hand bike ..the original owner took great care of his ride troughout the years .

I will ride it for a while and decide whether to keep or sell ! thx for the input ..
A very beautiful bike, and it's easy to see why you want to make it work! Keep in mind that while there are guidelines that some of us think work, they are not written in stone. Ultimately the bike needs to fit an entire body, not just a leg or a standing crotch height for example. I really think that if it is possible to adjust contact points on a built bicycle to be comfortable and efficient for you, then the frame it's built on is a fit. I go through this every time I get another frame, and have just finished it with my "new" Mondonico ELOS.

I can't help mansplaining, so I'll tell you what I do. Right now if the saddle height is good, that is a plus. Since you are coming from a 56 cm, see if you can duplicate that saddle height and setback on the Gardin. It might or might not be better but it is worth a try, since you said you were comfortable on that bike. Differences of a few millimeters can make be significant, said the princess who felt the pea.

Next is to see if the saddle setback is acceptable. You can do the knee-string-pedal axis test (also known as knee over pedal spindle, or KOPS), and that is a decent starting point. If that works, again a plus, so go on to the handlebar.

Again in the spirit of seeing if this bike can replicate the contact points of your old one, see if you can adjust the bar drop relative to the saddle to match what you have on the old one. Raising the handlebar is no sin, and because you have a quill stem rather than a thread less, you should be able to raise it maybe 5 cm before running into the safety limit.

Next is reach saddle to brake levers (this is what I do). On your old bike measure from the tail of the saddle as far forward as the horns at the top and front of the brake levers. First, they should be equal within a few mm or maybe 1/4 inch when the handlebars are centered. Second, you should be able to do the same measurement on your Gardin and see if it fits. If you feel like it's too long but can ride it, you probably are correct. In my experience it could be 3 or 4 cm too long. Whatever the measurement is, you can make up the difference by reducing the stem extension (horizontal distance) or the handlebar reach. To a small extent rotating the bars up can help - no law says you need the drops to be horizontal, even to race on.

While quill stems are much less available than they were, you can still buy excellent Nitto ones in a wide range of extensions - 7 cm might still be available and I'm sure 8s and 9s are. Handlebars are still also made in a range of reaches. What you have there is probably about 11 cm reach, and modern bars can be as short as 8 cm.

Some people say bike handling is affected by stem and bar reach, but I think it's very subtle, and that all-day fit trumps subtle distinctions in handling.

So before you throw out this beauty, try this procedure. Just use good measurements to see if you can make the contact points on the new frame match the ones on the old frame. If you can, it's golden. On my Mondo ELOS it turned a nice ride with too much stretch into a fantastic one.

Is it still really too big? Well, if you can't make the above work, then yes. If your criteria are that you must have a specific bar drop, setback, or stem length that cannot be achieved on this bike, then yes. The TT could really be too long and the seat tube angle could really be too steep. Or the standover could really be too uncomfortable when you stop and straddle the frame. But you should know about the standover by now, you won't know about the seat tube angle until you try to find the correct setback, and you won't know about the TT length until you try to match or improve the reach with the saddle setback correctly.

Why give up on such a great frame until you know you have to? Like a relationship, if you love it, work on it.

Last edited by Road Fan; 07-12-14 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 07-12-14, 08:52 AM   #13
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What length stem fit you well for a 56? Replicate the TT+stem length here for starters (keep the seat tube angle in mind). That's a beautiful bicycle, do all you can to get it to fit before considering selling.
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Old 07-12-14, 09:10 AM   #14
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Good luck in getting the bike to fit. What sets the bike apart for me is the translucent quality of the paint. Beautiful.

Can anyone comment on how that effect was achieved?
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Old 07-12-14, 09:31 AM   #15
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What length stem fit you well for a 56? Replicate the TT+stem length here for starters (keep the seat tube angle in mind). That's a beautiful bicycle, do all you can to get it to fit before considering selling.
Yeah, this is a good simplification of what I said!
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Old 07-12-14, 10:43 AM   #16
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A very beautiful bike, and it's easy to see why you want to make it work! Keep in mind that while there are guidelines that some of us think work, they are not written in stone. Ultimately the bike needs to fit an entire body, not just a leg or a standing crotch height for example. I really think that if it is possible to adjust contact points on a built bicycle to be comfortable and efficient for you, then the frame it's built on is a fit. I go through this every time I get another frame, and have just finished it with my "new" Mondonico ELOS.

I can't help mansplaining, so I'll tell you what I do. Right now if the saddle height is good, that is a plus. Since you are coming from a 56 cm, see if you can duplicate that saddle height and setback on the Gardin. It might or might not be better but it is worth a try, since you said you were comfortable on that bike. Differences of a few millimeters can make be significant, said the princess who felt the pea.

Next is to see if the saddle setback is acceptable. You can do the knee-string-pedal axis test (also known as knee over pedal spindle, or KOPS), and that is a decent starting point. If that works, again a plus, so go on to the handlebar.

Again in the spirit of seeing if this bike can replicate the contact points of your old one, see if you can adjust the bar drop relative to the saddle to match what you have on the old one. Raising the handlebar is no sin, and because you have a quill stem rather than a thread less, you should be able to raise it maybe 5 cm before running into the safety limit.

Next is reach saddle to brake levers (this is what I do). On your old bike measure from the tail of the saddle as far forward as the horns at the top and front of the brake levers. First, they should be equal within a few mm or maybe 1/4 inch when the handlebars are centered. Second, you should be able to do the same measurement on your Gardin and see if it fits. If you feel like it's too long but can ride it, you probably are correct. In my experience it could be 3 or 4 cm too long. Whatever the measurement is, you can make up the difference by reducing the stem extension (horizontal distance) or the handlebar reach. To a small extent rotating the bars up can help - no law says you need the drops to be horizontal, even to race on.

While quill stems are much less available than they were, you can still buy excellent Nitto ones in a wide range of extensions - 7 cm might still be available and I'm sure 8s and 9s are. Handlebars are still also made in a range of reaches. What you have there is probably about 11 cm reach, and modern bars can be as short as 8 cm.

Some people say bike handling is affected by stem and bar reach, but I think it's very subtle, and that all-day fit trumps subtle distinctions in handling.

So before you throw out this beauty, try this procedure. Just use good measurements to see if you can make the contact points on the new frame match the ones on the old frame. If you can, it's golden. On my Mondo ELOS it turned a nice ride with too much stretch into a fantastic one.

Is it still really too big? Well, if you can't make the above work, then yes. If your criteria are that you must have a specific bar drop, setback, or stem length that cannot be achieved on this bike, then yes. The TT could really be too long and the seat tube angle could really be too steep. Or the standover could really be too uncomfortable when you stop and straddle the frame. But you should know about the standover by now, you won't know about the seat tube angle until you try to find the correct setback, and you won't know about the TT length until you try to match or improve the reach with the saddle setback correctly.

Why give up on such a great frame until you know you have to? Like a relationship, if you love it, work on it.
Thanks for the input ...i already had everything covered or almost as to frame/body/fit procedure but like stated previously i always try to get into a 55-57cm max frame size and this bike is such a beauty that 'I HAD TO HAVE IT' no matter the consequences the bigger size would involve .

My seat height is set , set back on saddle is also adjusted to where i'm comfortable but the 58cm top tube plus 130mm stem lenght and 66-44 Cinelli bars all come to account the fact that its just too much for me and will never be able to enjoy it as much as a bike that truly fits me properly hence the reason i am considering keeping just until i find the right bike !!

If i allowed myself i would definetly keep it as a show piece since its just that but budget wise it wont look as good or maybe down the road just increase in value if i hang on long enough but that's another thread all together .
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Old 07-12-14, 10:46 AM   #17
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Oh how i wished i could duplicate the effect the paint has into a picture to show ...gorgeous sums it up pretty well !! Decal are applied by hand over the paint are are of such quality also !
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Old 07-12-14, 10:48 AM   #18
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Parting out the frame to keep all the goodies came to mind but not gonna happen ..
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Old 07-12-14, 10:55 AM   #19
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Ultimately the bike needs to fit an entire body
=1 +1 what he said
Go get fit from a bike shop that sells race bikes or has a race team with a doctor
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Old 07-12-14, 11:00 AM   #20
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=1 +1 what he said
Go get fit from a bike shop that sells race bikes or has a race team with a doctor
Fortunatly i know what i need as to a proper fit ..just too nice of a bike to let it pass , was more of a impulse buy that got me here !
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Old 07-12-14, 11:06 AM   #21
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I find em too small
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Old 07-12-14, 11:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
A very beautiful bike, and it's easy to see why you want to make it work! Keep in mind that while there are guidelines that some of us think work, they are not written in stone. Ultimately the bike needs to fit an entire body, not just a leg or a standing crotch height for example. I really think that if it is possible to adjust contact points on a built bicycle to be comfortable and efficient for you, then the frame it's built on is a fit. I go through this every time I get another frame, and have just finished it with my "new" Mondonico ELOS.

I can't help mansplaining, so I'll tell you what I do.
OY
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Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape
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Old 07-12-14, 11:35 AM   #23
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I find em too small
I usually am lucky as to find the right ones but got some big on occasion never too small or should i say ..i just have to stop buying !
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Old 07-12-14, 11:53 AM   #24
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n+1
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Old 07-13-14, 05:44 AM   #25
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Wowza. That is definitely one of the nice ones. Nice equiment on it, too.

Just my size, as well. A little jealous.

I'm a bit amused that the TT reads 'hand crafted by Joe Gardin'. I've been led to believe that Joe was the boss, but mostly 'handcrafted' business deals (not all of which ended well) rather than wielding a brazing torch. Not quite the same as the signature of Giuseppe Marinoni or Mike Mulholland, where it indicates the hand that made it all come together...
I was curious as to find if Joe Gardin ever build some bikes but as far as what i found over the net for info i read that he had a fellow from Italy building the bikes for him ...trying to find out who , no success for now !

I will post a pic of the chainstay to BB soon ..very interesting , chainstay are diamond shape with no bridge between them !

Any other brand out there with the same design except 'De rosa' which i know of !?!
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