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Old 07-21-14, 04:13 AM   #1
SCOe
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Help identifying mystery frame

Hi All,
I have been having a tough time identifying this frame and would appreciate some of the wealth of knowledge to help me with it. I wanted to do up a Vintage racer as I have a bunch of Shimano 600 gear but only on the condition that I have a decent frame to put it on. So what I do know of the frame is this,

Size: 57cmTT, 59STcm, 126mm rear axle
Frame Weight: 2.135kg
Fork Weight: 844gm
Dropouts: Vitus
BB: English/ISO
Does a Magnet stick: Yes
Potential Makers: Gitane and Peaugot, But there always seems to be a minor difference such as the '83 Peaugot PSV10 having holes in the rear dropouts.

I don't have faith that the Columbus sticker is legit so I have always discredited it due to the dropouts used but I have heard that the French would use anything and everything. I have tried to put as many useful pictures up as possible. So what is everyone's guess?

Thanks in advance.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg forks.jpg (18.6 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg forks2.jpg (43.0 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg back stays.jpg (40.3 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg bb.jpg (53.9 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg seat post.jpg (40.7 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg dropouts.jpg (32.1 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg frame.jpg (91.0 KB, 83 views)

Last edited by SCOe; 07-23-15 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 07-21-14, 04:32 AM   #2
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Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.
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Old 07-21-14, 09:19 AM   #3
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What are the ODs of the main tubes: metric or Imperial dimensions?
any rifling in the fork steerer, and what threading the steerer?
Might not be FR despite the Vitus DOs...
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Old 07-21-14, 11:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.
Thanks, when I weighed it I figured 2.979kgs wasn't very high end

Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
What are the ODs of the main tubes: metric or Imperial dimensions?
any rifling in the fork steerer, and what threading the steerer?
Might not be FR despite the Vitus DOs...
Ok so I might be missing the point with the OD (Outer Dimensions?) but here goes



Also, I don't have a fancy measuring device so these are approximates;
A= 11cm round (Diameter = 3.5cm)
B= 9.2cm round (Diameter = 2.92cm)
C=9.2cm round (Diameter = 2.92cm)
D= 8cm round (Diameter = 2.54cm)

No rifling in the Front steerer
Steerer is British threaded 1"
Seat post size is 26.4 (I say this as I have a 26.2 which can be twisted when the seatpost bolt is tightened)
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File Type: jpg frame in paint.jpg (7.6 KB, 3 views)
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Old 07-22-14, 02:29 AM   #5
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So since posting the above I started looking at Gitane catalogues. There is one bike which sent me on a tangent, 1980 Tricolore (http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/cata...80_Page_11.jpg) which pointed me in the direction of 'Verktyg' the guru. One of his posts got me looking through the bottom bracket to see if there were seams in the rear stays... which there are.

(gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Frame Identification)
(gitaneusa.com :: View topic - E-Bay "1971 Super Pista"??)

So this main front triangle is potentially made of something decent, and the rear triangle is not...
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Old 07-22-14, 08:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.
Fork is most definitely NOT unicrown. It's got an investment cast internal crown:
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Old 07-22-14, 08:32 AM   #7
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The importance of the seat tube outer diameter is that French and Swiss bikes tend to be hard metric (28.0mm), while everyone else's frames are English (28.6mm, which is 1-1/8").

A seat post diameter of 26.2mm or smaller with an OD of 28.6mm would definitely indicate a straight gauge frame, probably plain carbon steel, rather than a higher-strength moly steel.

The width of the bottom bracket shell often, but not always, separates Italian frames (70mm) from most others (68mm).

The best help in establishing country of origin is the bottom bracket threading.
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Old 07-22-14, 09:46 AM   #8
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English BB
Vitus rear dropouts with no fender mount
rounded points on seatstays
investment cast fork crown
26.4mm seatpost diameter

I was leaning towards Gitane Sprint but for the seatstay tips, which are flat like all other Gitanes I've seen.(not counting the ones with the "fastback" joined seatstays)
https://plus.google.com/photos/10521...61149836187409

The 1985 Gitane Record and Performance have the right seatpost diameter, vitus dropouts and fork but it comes with "aero rear brake cable routing" and different seatstay tips
http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1985_pg5.jpg

Columbus Aelle or Reynolds 501 main tubing is good riding stuff. It could be the fork is not original to the frame but it should ride nicely.

Good luck!
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Old 07-22-14, 10:47 AM   #9
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Whatever it is, it looks nice.
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Old 07-23-14, 03:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbattle View Post
English BB
It could be the fork is not original to the frame but it should ride nicely. Good luck!
Thanks This is usually my issue, I can find a bike that is 99% the same. I have thought that maybe the fork isn't original but the fork dropouts look like vitus ones even thought there are no markings





Quote:
Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Whatever it is, it looks nice.
Thanks One of the reasons I want to find out what this frame is is that I don't want to be a poser rolling around on a 'columbus' bike when it isn't. A bit like getting a chinese carbon pinarello...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John E View Post
The best help in establishing country of origin is the bottom bracket threading.
I went and measured it and is definitely 68mm
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File Type: jpeg horizontal dropout late 70s - 80s.jpeg (25.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg dropoutss.jpg (27.4 KB, 7 views)
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Old 07-24-14, 03:21 AM   #11
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Looks like a decent quality French production frame from the 1980s. At first glance it looks like a mid to late 80s Peugeot but the way the seat stays are attached is different - same with Gitanes and Motobecanes.




From the early 1980s, most French bikes used British threads but frequently had metric tubes. The full slopping fork crown looks like the "micro fusion" investment cast steel crowns used on French bikes from the 80s.

Paint looks like it might be a powder coat job???

verktyg Chas.
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File Type: jpg Gitane1984CriteriumSeatLug-eBay.jpg (95.8 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg PeugeotBiarritz1988SeatStayCluster.jpg (59.0 KB, 16 views)
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Last edited by verktyg; 07-25-14 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 07-27-14, 02:40 AM   #12
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thanks verktyg
Yeh I noticed that there was a shift in the mid to late 80s to position the rear stays behind the seat post and/or to have internal seat post locking mechanisms (especially with peugeot).

The frame has been painted and not powder coated. A pretty good job also. It was done by Joe Cosgrove (or at least his company) who is a frame painter/builder in Brisbane, Australia.

I have reached the end of my journey and will give up/build up this frame and enjoy it. It will be hard to get to the end of the riddle but I have 2 frames that it could be;

A) 1982-83 Motobecane Grand Record (With Vitus Dropouts) This frame was made with Vitus 172
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...&_Prolight.jpg
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog..._specs_pg1.jpg

B) 1982 (French) PF10 (With Vitus Dropouts) This is a 3 tubes Vitus bike which has very similar features.
http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1982French.pdf

Thanks for all the assistance!
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Old 08-10-14, 07:34 PM   #13
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so I've run into a hurdle (as always with renovations). It seems my short reach Shimano 600 brakes don't work well with 700c wheels
gonna have to put 27" wheels on now which will change the look a bit. Also just waiting for a new FD as I didn't realsie the one I had was friction..

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Old 08-10-14, 07:41 PM   #14
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Front derailleurs usually don't care if the shifters are friction or index.

Level that saddle a bit.
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Old 08-12-14, 02:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOe View Post
thanks verktyg
Yeh I noticed that there was a shift in the mid to late 80s to position the rear stays behind the seat post and/or to have internal seat post locking mechanisms (especially with peugeot).

A) 1982-83 Motobecane Grand Record (With Vitus Dropouts) This frame was made with Vitus 172
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...&_Prolight.jpg
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog..._specs_pg1.jpg

B) 1982 (French) PF10 (With Vitus Dropouts) This is a 3 tubes Vitus bike which has very similar features.
http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1982French.pdf

Thanks for all the assistance!
It's not a Motobecane Grand Record. I have an NOS frame from around that time that I got from a seller in France. It's all Reynolds 531 not Super Vitus, also, it has Huret dropouts, also a different crown and fluted seat stay tops.





The BB shell is welded which wasn't used on many French bikes after the early 70s. It may be a custom built frame made by someone in OZ.

So your from Brissy? Only 6 months until Ashes!

verktyg

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File Type: jpg MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-1Cropped.jpg (46.5 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-6Cropped.jpg (39.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg MotobecaneLeChampion1977SeatStay.jpg (77.8 KB, 9 views)
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Old 08-13-14, 08:06 PM   #16
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Yeh I have been thinking maybe it was built over here. There are a few frame builders from a couple decades ago that made names for themselves (ie: Tom Wallace)

Your new purchase looks good! I have a fetish for chrome forks Looks like it is a 1981 Grand record? The catalogue seems to match most of it but says it should have Campagnolo rear drop outs and Huret on the forks?
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...3_specs_p1.jpg

Yeh the Ashes should be good I went last year for 2 days.
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Old 08-14-14, 01:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOe View Post
Your new purchase looks good! I have a fetish for chrome forks Looks like it is a 1981 Grand record? The catalogue seems to match most of it but says it should have Campagnolo rear drop outs and Huret on the forks?
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...3_specs_p1.jpg
I bought it back in 2007 from a seller in France. It was new, never ridden but from a parted out bike. The forks are pearlescent white not chrome, like on the Grand Record in the 1982-83 Motobecane catalog.




The 1981 Grand Records were pearlescent white with dark blue horizontal stripes.

http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg


Motobecane made so many model variations, especially during the late 70s and 1980s that it's hard to keep track of them. The variations included different models for specific markets like France, The UK, German, Eastern Europe, the US and so on.

The frames had Vitus 172, Reynolds 531 or Columbus tubing, Campy as well as Huret dropouts and different BB shells. The finished bikes came with all different kinds of components, even for the same models.


GitaneUSA.com forum member "Wisey" is from Brissy> He was active on the forum until early this year. there were a number of other "Ockers" on that forum (they taught me a lot of bad Ozzy slang).

gitaneusa.com :: Viewing profile

Here's another member from OZ:

gitaneusa.com :: View topic - My old Criterium



verktyg

Chas.
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File Type: jpg GrandRecord1982-83-MarkBulgier.jpg (98.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-3.jpg (72.0 KB, 7 views)
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Old 09-17-14, 05:17 AM   #18
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cool links chas

here is the update for the build.
Just laced my first wheel, front. Don't have the tool to get the cassette off yet so they back will wait.

Looking forward to ride-day

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Old 09-17-14, 05:30 AM   #19
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It's gonna be good!
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Old 07-23-15, 02:25 AM   #20
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This build has been start, stop, store. Finally finished it today. Ended up getting longer reach brakes as 27" wheels didn't suit my plans after all. So turns I guess that this is a ~7 speed bike. First ride was awesome! Gonna have this as a fun bike for now. Only thing I would like to change is the seat but you won't see that when I'm riding it.

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Old 07-23-15, 02:33 AM   #21
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One thing I did note was the Vitus Dropouts had an interesting feature.

They had space within them to hide the Dropout Adjuster Spring. So the adjuster was recessed in and I guess not exposed to the elements where it could seize up.

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