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  1. #1
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    Help identifying mystery frame

    Hi All,
    I have been having a tough time identifying this frame and would appreciate some of the wealth of knowledge to help me with it. I wanted to do up a Vintage racer as I have a bunch of Shimano 600 gear but only on the condition that I have a decent frame to put it on. So what I do know of the frame is this,

    Size: 56cm, 56cm, 126mm rear axle
    Frame Weight: 2.135kg
    Fork Weight: 844gm
    Dropouts: Vitus
    BB: English/ISO
    Does a Magnet stick: Yes
    Potential Makers: Gitane and Peaugot, But there always seems to be a minor difference such as the '83 Peaugot PSV10 having holes in the rear dropouts.

    I don't have faith that the Columbus sticker is legit so I have always discredited it due to the dropouts used but I have heard that the French would use anything and everything. I have tried to put as many useful pictures up as possible. So what is everyone's guess?

    Thanks in advance.

    frame.jpg
    back stays.jpgbb.jpgseat post.jpgdropouts.jpgforks.jpgforks2.jpg

  2. #2
    Senior Member zukahn1's Avatar
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    Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.

  3. #3
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    What are the ODs of the main tubes: metric or Imperial dimensions?
    any rifling in the fork steerer, and what threading the steerer?
    Might not be FR despite the Vitus DOs...

  4. #4
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
    Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.
    Thanks, when I weighed it I figured 2.979kgs wasn't very high end

    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    What are the ODs of the main tubes: metric or Imperial dimensions?
    any rifling in the fork steerer, and what threading the steerer?
    Might not be FR despite the Vitus DOs...
    Ok so I might be missing the point with the OD (Outer Dimensions?) but here goes

    frame in paint.jpg

    Also, I don't have a fancy measuring device so these are approximates;
    A= 11cm round (Diameter = 3.5cm)
    B= 9.2cm round (Diameter = 2.92cm)
    C=9.2cm round (Diameter = 2.92cm)
    D= 8cm round (Diameter = 2.54cm)

    No rifling in the Front steerer
    Steerer is British threaded 1"
    Seat post size is 26.4 (I say this as I have a 26.2 which can be twisted when the seatpost bolt is tightened)

  5. #5
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    So since posting the above I started looking at Gitane catalogues. There is one bike which sent me on a tangent, 1980 Tricolore (http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/cata...80_Page_11.jpg) which pointed me in the direction of 'Verktyg' the guru. One of his posts got me looking through the bottom bracket to see if there were seams in the rear stays... which there are.

    (gitaneusa.com :: View topic - Frame Identification)
    (gitaneusa.com :: View topic - E-Bay "1971 Super Pista"??)

    So this main front triangle is potentially made of something decent, and the rear triangle is not...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
    Not sure where this frame hales from but looks to be mid level or less frame from mid 80's recessed brake mounts unicrown fork top cable guides with visiable seems in palces and just Ok Lug work.
    Fork is most definitely NOT unicrown. It's got an investment cast internal crown:

  7. #7
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    The importance of the seat tube outer diameter is that French and Swiss bikes tend to be hard metric (28.0mm), while everyone else's frames are English (28.6mm, which is 1-1/8").

    A seat post diameter of 26.2mm or smaller with an OD of 28.6mm would definitely indicate a straight gauge frame, probably plain carbon steel, rather than a higher-strength moly steel.

    The width of the bottom bracket shell often, but not always, separates Italian frames (70mm) from most others (68mm).

    The best help in establishing country of origin is the bottom bracket threading.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  8. #8
    . bbattle's Avatar
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    English BB
    Vitus rear dropouts with no fender mount
    rounded points on seatstays
    investment cast fork crown
    26.4mm seatpost diameter

    I was leaning towards Gitane Sprint but for the seatstay tips, which are flat like all other Gitanes I've seen.(not counting the ones with the "fastback" joined seatstays)
    https://plus.google.com/photos/10521...61149836187409

    The 1985 Gitane Record and Performance have the right seatpost diameter, vitus dropouts and fork but it comes with "aero rear brake cable routing" and different seatstay tips
    http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1985_pg5.jpg

    Columbus Aelle or Reynolds 501 main tubing is good riding stuff. It could be the fork is not original to the frame but it should ride nicely.

    Good luck!

  9. #9
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Whatever it is, it looks nice.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  10. #10
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbattle View Post
    English BB
    It could be the fork is not original to the frame but it should ride nicely. Good luck!
    Thanks This is usually my issue, I can find a bike that is 99% the same. I have thought that maybe the fork isn't original but the fork dropouts look like vitus ones even thought there are no markings

    horizontal dropout late 70s - 80s.jpeg

    dropoutss.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    Whatever it is, it looks nice.
    Thanks One of the reasons I want to find out what this frame is is that I don't want to be a poser rolling around on a 'columbus' bike when it isn't. A bit like getting a chinese carbon pinarello...

    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    The best help in establishing country of origin is the bottom bracket threading.
    I went and measured it and is definitely 68mm

  11. #11
    verktyg verktyg's Avatar
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    Looks like a decent quality French production frame from the 1980s. At first glance it looks like a mid to late 80s Peugeot but the way the seat stays are attached is different - same with Gitanes and Motobecanes.

    PeugeotBiarritz1988SeatStayCluster.jpg
    Gitane1984CriteriumSeatLug-eBay.jpg

    From the early 1980s, most French bikes used British threads but frequently had metric tubes. The full slopping fork crown looks like the "micro fusion" investment cast steel crowns used on French bikes from the 80s.

    Paint looks like it might be a powder coat job???

    verktyg Chas.
    Last edited by verktyg; 07-25-14 at 03:31 AM.
    Things aren't always what the seem... Don't believe everything you think!

    Chas.

  12. #12
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    thanks verktyg
    Yeh I noticed that there was a shift in the mid to late 80s to position the rear stays behind the seat post and/or to have internal seat post locking mechanisms (especially with peugeot).

    The frame has been painted and not powder coated. A pretty good job also. It was done by Joe Cosgrove (or at least his company) who is a frame painter/builder in Brisbane, Australia.

    I have reached the end of my journey and will give up/build up this frame and enjoy it. It will be hard to get to the end of the riddle but I have 2 frames that it could be;

    A) 1982-83 Motobecane Grand Record (With Vitus Dropouts) This frame was made with Vitus 172
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...&_Prolight.jpg
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog..._specs_pg1.jpg

    B) 1982 (French) PF10 (With Vitus Dropouts) This is a 3 tubes Vitus bike which has very similar features.
    http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1982French.pdf

    Thanks for all the assistance!

  13. #13
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    so I've run into a hurdle (as always with renovations). It seems my short reach Shimano 600 brakes don't work well with 700c wheels
    gonna have to put 27" wheels on now which will change the look a bit. Also just waiting for a new FD as I didn't realsie the one I had was friction..

    Untitled-1 copy.jpg

  14. #14
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Front derailleurs usually don't care if the shifters are friction or index.

    Level that saddle a bit.
    1980ish Free Spirit Sunbird fixed * 1996 Mongoose IBOC Zero-G * 1997 KHS Comp * 1990-ish Scapin * Lemond Buenos Aires Triple

  15. #15
    verktyg verktyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCOe View Post
    thanks verktyg
    Yeh I noticed that there was a shift in the mid to late 80s to position the rear stays behind the seat post and/or to have internal seat post locking mechanisms (especially with peugeot).

    A) 1982-83 Motobecane Grand Record (With Vitus Dropouts) This frame was made with Vitus 172
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...&_Prolight.jpg
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog..._specs_pg1.jpg

    B) 1982 (French) PF10 (With Vitus Dropouts) This is a 3 tubes Vitus bike which has very similar features.
    http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1982French.pdf

    Thanks for all the assistance!
    It's not a Motobecane Grand Record. I have an NOS frame from around that time that I got from a seller in France. It's all Reynolds 531 not Super Vitus, also, it has Huret dropouts, also a different crown and fluted seat stay tops.

    MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-1Cropped.jpg
    MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-6Cropped.jpg
    MotobecaneLeChampion1977SeatStay.jpg

    The BB shell is welded which wasn't used on many French bikes after the early 70s. It may be a custom built frame made by someone in OZ.

    So your from Brissy? Only 6 months until Ashes!

    verktyg

    Chas.
    Things aren't always what the seem... Don't believe everything you think!

    Chas.

  16. #16
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    Yeh I have been thinking maybe it was built over here. There are a few frame builders from a couple decades ago that made names for themselves (ie: Tom Wallace)

    Your new purchase looks good! I have a fetish for chrome forks Looks like it is a 1981 Grand record? The catalogue seems to match most of it but says it should have Campagnolo rear drop outs and Huret on the forks?
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...3_specs_p1.jpg

    Yeh the Ashes should be good I went last year for 2 days.

  17. #17
    verktyg verktyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCOe View Post
    Your new purchase looks good! I have a fetish for chrome forks Looks like it is a 1981 Grand record? The catalogue seems to match most of it but says it should have Campagnolo rear drop outs and Huret on the forks?
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg
    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...3_specs_p1.jpg
    I bought it back in 2007 from a seller in France. It was new, never ridden but from a parted out bike. The forks are pearlescent white not chrome, like on the Grand Record in the 1982-83 Motobecane catalog.

    MotobecaneGrandRecord80s-3.jpg


    The 1981 Grand Records were pearlescent white with dark blue horizontal stripes.

    http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalog...and_Record.jpg


    Motobecane made so many model variations, especially during the late 70s and 1980s that it's hard to keep track of them. The variations included different models for specific markets like France, The UK, German, Eastern Europe, the US and so on.

    The frames had Vitus 172, Reynolds 531 or Columbus tubing, Campy as well as Huret dropouts and different BB shells. The finished bikes came with all different kinds of components, even for the same models.


    GitaneUSA.com forum member "Wisey" is from Brissy> He was active on the forum until early this year. there were a number of other "Ockers" on that forum (they taught me a lot of bad Ozzy slang).

    gitaneusa.com :: Viewing profile

    Here's another member from OZ:

    gitaneusa.com :: View topic - My old Criterium



    verktyg

    Chas.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Things aren't always what the seem... Don't believe everything you think!

    Chas.

  18. #18
    Junior Member SCOe's Avatar
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    cool links chas

    here is the update for the build.
    Just laced my first wheel, front. Don't have the tool to get the cassette off yet so they back will wait.

    Looking forward to ride-day

    IMG_2216 small.jpg

  19. #19
    South Carolina Ed
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    It's gonna be good!

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