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Old 07-22-14, 03:25 PM   #26
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Really cool Bates, ZB! Congrats on the find. Definitely a head-turner. I think it looks good with the NR parts. Maybe just change to a TA Cyclotouriste or Stronglight crank if want a smaller ring up front, or get one of the SOMA long-cage kits for the RD and add a wider range freewheel?

You mention it is very lightweight. Out of curiosity, do you know the frame/fork and/or total build weight?
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Old 07-22-14, 04:06 PM   #27
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alas I do not own a scale. I am also curious. Next time i encounter a scale I'll weigh it as built.

The only issue I am having right now is that the big cog is a 25 and the pulley on the derailleur is rubbing the big cog. I had a 28 as the big cog initially and it wouldn't even shift in there, so I put a 25 on hoping for respite but barely any to be had. I've been suggested to pull the wheel back further in the dropouts but because of the derailleur claw I can't go any further than it is already.

Is there a special Campagnolo NR derailleur claw? This is my first outing with vintage Campag NR so I'm a little put off by the lack of a B screw.

I agree that a TA Cyclotouriste or similar would be welcome on there at some point. Although for right now there is some small sense of "cool" of having the bike wearing a completely matched Campagnolo NR setup….so if I changed the Crankset I'd feel no need to keep the limited range derailleur. Would the SOMA kit fix the max cog issue I'm having or simply add more chain wrap capacity?
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Old 07-22-14, 06:20 PM   #28
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ZB, I believe that derailleur claws did come in at least a couple of different lengths, and one hanging a bit lower should help you get that 25t cog--or swap in a derailleur with a B screw! I can check the bin to see what length hangers I have.
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Old 07-22-14, 06:42 PM   #29
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I'm sure you could have your friendly local machinist make you an axle-mounted derailleur claw. That might even be a patentable idea. What this bike really needs, though, is a sturmey Archer hub and Resilion cantilever brakes. A nice slender steel crank won't add significant weight.
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Old 07-22-14, 07:10 PM   #30
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Hey how come strap-on cantis aren't still around… that seems like a pretty decent invention

know anywhere I can get a Sturmey 5 speed?
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Old 07-22-14, 08:23 PM   #31
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Sturmey Archer made 4-speeds back then. With alloy hub bodies too. I would probably set it up with that and a Benelux cyclo to take up chain tension? Some kind of slender steel crank in the front like a Chater Lea or something... with a 42 and a 52. Probably a 24 in the back.

Nice find!
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Old 07-22-14, 08:40 PM   #32
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Sturmey Archer made 4-speeds back then. With alloy hub bodies too. I would probably set it up with that and a Benelux cyclo to take up chain tension? Some kind of slender steel crank in the front like a Chater Lea or something... with a 42 and a 52. Probably a 24 in the back.

Nice find!
For a Bates, I'd lean toward Chater-Lea pedals and cranks, but a nice Williams crank would also be perfectly fine on this frame.

As far as the Sturmey 4-speed, they didn't introduce them until the mid 1940s, so that would be too new if someone was shooting for a period correct build.
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Old 07-22-14, 09:04 PM   #33
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Old 07-23-14, 07:09 AM   #34
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All looks nice.

To be honest I'm likely gonna want this bike built up with a wider gear range than most of the simple period correct drivetrains can offer. Something closer to what Salubrius has suggested is likely. If i'm going with an SA hub its gonna be 5 speed. The 4 speeds are great and all that but honestly a 4 speed is basically the same in appearance (and very similar in mechanicals) as a 5 speed, and I'd ruther the extra ratio. If I go with the SA hub its still likely I'll want a lower low gear. The hills here in northern VT can be crushing and while my brain says HTFU and pedal, my knees say otherwise.

So I think (at the moment) that any solution is going to involve two chainrings and at the very least something to take up chain if not simply a derailleur gear system. I have both cycle and simplex chain stay mount derailleurs I could employ and a simplex suicide FD.
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Old 07-23-14, 07:30 AM   #35
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You can put 4 speed guts in an AW shell from as early as 1937 and no one will know you have that extra low gear unless they get a good look at the left side of your hub axle. Same goes for 5 speed guts, but you'll have a second shifter and bell crank on the left side, and it's harder to hide that.

The difference between the 4 and 5 speed hubs is very small. Both have the potential for five gears; but the 4 speed shift mechanism doesn't get you there. The more complicated 5 speed shift mechanism does. The latter mechanism is more reliable generally.

With the 5 speed hub, you can gear the whole thing low enough to get over some pretty nasty hills and still have a decent cruising speed.

For example, if you have the standard 46t chain ring and a commonly available 23t cog on the hub, 700x32c tires will give you 36 to 81 gear inches.
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Old 07-23-14, 07:42 AM   #36
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Well now that would be a nearly acceptable Gear range.
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Old 07-23-14, 07:59 AM   #37
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Hey how come strap-on cantis aren't still around… that seems like a pretty decent invention...
People have tried strap-on bosses for modern type cantis. You can get them but they're very expensive. I suspect the reason they're rare is because the idea is fundamentally flawed; that type of brake puts a strong twisting motion on one side of the fork or stay, and the clamp doesn't have the strength to resist that kind of force.

The Resilion brake is a different design, with the brake pads directly between the fork or stay and the rim, so the twisting motion is balanced (and may actually contribute braking power). The problem with the Resilion brake was that setup was tricky, required different mounting bits for every different size or shape of tubing, and there was no quick release. Caliper brakes are, in contrast, practically a one-size-fits-all solution.
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Old 07-23-14, 09:44 AM   #38
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Hey how come strap-on cantis aren't still around… that seems like a pretty decent invention
Craven Moarhead is asking about a strap-on for his master Bates.

Just stating fact.
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Old 07-23-14, 10:22 AM   #39
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I'm sure you could have your friendly local machinist make you an axle-mounted derailleur claw. That might even be a patentable idea. What this bike really needs, though, is a sturmey Archer hub and Resilion cantilever brakes. A nice slender steel crank won't add significant weight.
Calling @rootboy!
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Old 07-23-14, 10:27 AM   #40
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I agree that a range of 36" through 81" is quite livable. 36" is plenty low, at least for me. 81" means you can't pedal down all of the hills, but you can get a lot of thrills coasting down Vermont hills. A five-speed hub is a good, reliable machine. The four-speed is interesting, but I've ridden with @rhm while his 1st gear slipped at all the wrong times, and it didn't inspire me.
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Old 07-23-14, 10:43 AM   #41
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... The four-speed is interesting, but I've ridden with @rhm while his 1st gear slipped at all the wrong times, and it didn't inspire me.
I fixed that. I sold the hub to @photogravity.
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Old 07-23-14, 11:02 AM   #42
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I fixed that. I sold the hub to @photogravity.
And it is still hanging around here somewhere, along with around a couple dozen more internal gear hubs. I'll not discuss the many 3, 4 and 5 speed wheels laying around the shop.
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Old 07-23-14, 11:21 AM   #43
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Easy but effective fix, and it hasn't malfunctioned once since I fixed it.
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Old 07-23-14, 11:28 AM   #44
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Great looking ride. Putting an IGH on this bike would be caving in to all of the "period correct" stuff on BF that bugs you. Set it up to ride where you live, so you will enjoy it. With new paint and decals, virtually any late 60's/ early 70's componets that work for you, would look at home and look great on that bike. Don't let let the flatland, IGH crowd sway you. There is no Smugglers Notch equivalent in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey.......
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Old 07-23-14, 12:02 PM   #45
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FW with a cyclo 2 speed freewheel and chain pull derailleur...just sayin'



Hybrid Hub/Derailleur Gears
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Old 07-23-14, 12:20 PM   #46
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Um, I've thought about this again. @fender1 is right. You have a light bike, and you live in Vermont. An IGH adds weight. An IGH costs more, unless you have a spare IGH on hand. Your current setup proves that you are already close to what you want. Derailleurs have their advantages. Now figure out how to put lower gears on.
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Old 07-23-14, 12:35 PM   #47
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Let's look at the priorities here.

This thread is entitled "1937 Bates". The owner clearly appreciates the fact that he's dealing with a frame that's almost 80 years old.

Aside from that, he has no problems with hills; he has other bikes he can ride over just about any hill in VT.

So while a tasteful anachronistic build may result in a bike better suited to handling every situation, there is no need to build a bike that can handle every situation.

Those of you who haven't ridden Sturmey Archer geared hubs over serious hills, perhaps you might be a little more circumspect in your criticism of them. I admit they are not perfect. But then again, neither are derailleurs.
The real issue, if you want to build a period correct 1937 bike and ride it over serious hills, is not gearing. Gearing is easily solved. Brakes are a much more serious issue. I have heard more than one person, who has ridden Zaphod's Dawes, attest to that.

Finally, lest we criticize New Jersey overmuch, let's be respectful of those who actually from there (such as Zaphod).
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Old 07-23-14, 12:50 PM   #48
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. There is no Smugglers Notch equivalent in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey.......
You are correct, you'd have to go to the Northern part of the state for that..........

But really, when did the C&V crowd get all practical and such.........steep hills are meant for walkin' !
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Old 07-23-14, 01:01 PM   #49
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I like New Jersey.
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Old 07-23-14, 03:13 PM   #50
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Oh snap, @rhm! And I did have the frightening block-long test ride on @Zaphod Beeblebrox's Dawes. You make a good point. So do you think he should be honing his sneakers-on-the-tire-tread braking technique?
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