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Old 07-23-14, 03:58 PM   #51
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No actually the Dawes is next up to get ripped down and built up anew. I wanna try it with 650B and hub brakes. Could be interesting seeing how it was designed for wide EA1's. Admittedly I've not attempted to replace the drum brake shoes on those nearly 80 year old hubs.
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Old 07-23-14, 04:12 PM   #52
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There Is No Shame In Walking Up Hills

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. There is no Smugglers Notch equivalent in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey.......
You are correct, you'd have to go to the Northern part of the state for that..........

But really, when did the C&V crowd get all practical and such.........steep hills are meant for walkin' !
Amen @Velognome! We both know that reality, don't we?
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Old 07-23-14, 04:13 PM   #53
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No actually the Dawes is next up to get ripped down and built up anew. I wanna try it with 650B and hub brakes. Could be interesting seeing how it was designed for wide EA1's. Admittedly I've not attempted to replace the drum brake shoes on those nearly 80 year old hubs.
It may not be hard. What have you got to lose?
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Old 07-23-14, 05:38 PM   #54
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Time. Interest.

The IGH works if it makes sense. We'll see. Fender1's correct though in the sense that I want this Bates to be ridden. I don't ride the Dawes enough mainly because of how its built up. I want the Bates to be enjoyable to ride in the place I live. I want to want to ride it. Knowing me the end result will be slightly odd but serve a purpose.
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Old 07-23-14, 08:05 PM   #55
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You will need a bell for the handlebars (it was required in all races). Some black woolen shorts and black woolen jersey would help too.
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Old 07-24-14, 07:49 AM   #56
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Oh yes and a spare saddle to sniff and an effed up set of teeth and maybe I'll start affecting a British accent. I am a new englander now (geographically speaking)
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Old 07-24-14, 07:57 AM   #57
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At some point this frame will get stripped and professionally painted at which time proper decals and head badge will be applied.
Yeah. That's what I meant.
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Old 07-24-14, 08:06 AM   #58
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Calling @rootboy!
I'm curious, Tom. I don't have much experience with derailleur claws. Have one in my parts box, which I think is a Campagnolo one.
Is it just a matter of length? The distance between the axis of the axle and the center of the derailleur mounting bolt? I presume a few extra millimeters would drop the upper pulley down enough to clear a larger FW cog. But I'm curious as I can get one of my NR derailleurs to shift to a 28 cog. But just. Maybe the difference is in the dropout itself. Geometry of the frame, etc.
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Old 07-24-14, 08:31 AM   #59
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Just saw this thread. Thought I would share my 1910 Bates track bike
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File Type: jpg Bates 031.jpg (90.3 KB, 37 views)
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Old 07-24-14, 08:51 AM   #60
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There were two builders of the same name BATES. Which one is this? I used to have the distinction stored in my head but my being the sort who cannot remember his own phone number, it's all gone at the moment.

My Dad had a Bates when he served in the RCAF/RAF in Britain during WW!!. All during my youth he would recall the beauty of the machine talk about it at parties to people who could have cared a toss about bikes. He sold it when he was repatriated to Canada. My mother met him while he was riding this machine.

Well ... that was a lasting impression. Apparently, the frame had very arabesque type lugs and came to him with road wheels, as well as a set of of bamboo rims fitted with silk tires for track work. All my memory of his rants suggests to me that it had a multi-ratio drive and perhaps a SA hub.

He joined a local cycling club near where he was posted and when not on duty rode on weekend rides through the English countryside. The club members were mostly factory workers whose passion was cycling. Dad was very fit, despite being a smoker, and ran the mile event for 85 Group, RAF. But, he said these club riders were difficult to keep up with. He probably had the best machine of the lot.

A nice build and I admire and envy what you have bought and cared for. I despair that I will never be able to do the same but WTH.
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Old 07-24-14, 10:25 AM   #61
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Just saw this thread. Thought I would share my 1910 Bates track bike
Bates didn't open up shop till the mid 20's and didn't use the diadrant fork until 36 so I'm thinking you're off on the 1910 date.
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Old 07-24-14, 11:08 AM   #62
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Do those "@" symbols actually do anything on this site?

Test: @noglider

Edit: Yup, they do!
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Old 07-24-14, 11:18 AM   #63
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Bates didn't open up shop till the mid 20's and didn't use the diadrant fork until 36 so I'm thinking you're off on the 1910 date.
My thoughts exactly, Matt.
@Lenton58 - the distinction between the Bateses didn't start until post-war. The Bates Brothers (Horace and Eddie) Split into Bates of London (Horace) and E.G. Bates (eddie) in '47. E.G Bates are not built with Cantiflex tubes or Diadrant forks.
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Old 07-24-14, 09:08 PM   #64
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Finally on the road, here is my 1937 Bates.






That, sir, is a machine most excellent.
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Old 07-25-14, 05:10 AM   #65
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Looks awesome! So does the fork make it feel any different from a typical fork rake?
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Old 07-25-14, 07:16 AM   #66
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Thanks guys, nice to see both of you still around :-)

I guess it seems a little different when I ride it. When you sit on the saddle and look forward there's more front wheel showing out in front of the bars than I'm accustomed to seeing. I suspect because of the fork rake (or trail…i dunno) it takes more steering input to initiate turns than say my '84 Gran Course or Team Miyata, but the chainstays are short and stiff so its very responsive when you stomp on it and once you initiate a turn it feels quick and nimble.

Its a different setup than I'm used to. I typically have very little saddle to bar drop if any. On the Bates its more significant of a drop but not so much that I would think "oh this frame is too small". On the contrary it feels really good. It fits me about as well as I could ask a frame to fit. All those Bateses back then were custom sized to the owner's specs, so maybe I just found a Bates that was originally ordered by a guy who was sized just like me. The fit is actually so good presently that i'm a little afraid to change anything about the handlebars/brake lever setup for fear of ruining it!

I had it out again yesterday on about 10 miles worth of hard-packed dirt roads. Rides like a dream. I've heard from some that these bikes ride harsh, but I'm not feeling that. Its certainly no harsher than any high-end 80's steel roadie I've ridden….probably less so. Yes, perhaps the Gran Bois Cypres 32's are to thank for the lack of harshness…but i'd suspect just as much that the folks who've characterized it as harsh may be comparing it to standard, run of the mill 1970's 531 which we know is usually not as harsh as some of the more modern (80s) variants. I dunno for sure but what I can say is it rides well, fits me perfectly and I like it.

Also I managed to get the RD to shift the 25T cog properly. I was able to pull the rear wheel a few mm further back in the dropouts and now its shifting like buttah.
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Old 07-25-14, 08:57 AM   #67
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My thoughts exactly, Matt.
@Lenton58 - the distinction between the Bateses didn't start until post-war. The Bates Brothers (Horace and Eddie) Split into Bates of London (Horace) and E.G. Bates (eddie) in '47. E.G Bates are not built with Cantiflex tubes or Diadrant forks.
You are exactly correct, my mistake. I contacted the gentleman that I purchased the bike from and received this information,

The Bates that you have is the "Volante" Model. That bike is 1936 and it's the first year of the "Volante". This bike is
extremely rare and from what I know, there are no other surviving 1936 Volante models. I'm not exactly sure
when "Bates" bicycles started production but I believe it may have been around the '20's. (Volante was introduced in '36)

The "Volante" originally came in one color only - matte black with gold lining. This bike was stated by the previous
owner before he passed away that it is the original bike raced by the great Torchy Peden at the 1937 Wembley
Six-Day bike race in London England. It is believed that this bike is still in its original paint.


Thanks guy's for improving my knowledge,

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Old 07-25-14, 09:29 AM   #68
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Well, wow! It is sure a spectacular bike. Now, how do we make this attachment big enough to really appreciate it?

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Old 07-25-14, 10:23 AM   #69
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Yup. That's pretty.
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Old 07-26-14, 08:48 PM   #70
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Just saw this thread. Thought I would share my 1910 Bates track bike
Drool.
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Old 07-28-14, 06:25 PM   #71
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What sort of brakes should I use for something like this? I need long reach. Right now i need Weinmann Vanqueir 750 in the rear and can get by with 650 in the front. Nutted obviously.

What's a classier choice for a brake caliper than a Weinmann center pull? I want a decent brake, not something that looks nice and just sucks.
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Old 07-28-14, 06:57 PM   #72
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Reach for the rear brake will be your deciding factor. Weinmann, MAFAC, Universal and maybe Zeus will have the reach. There maybe others that I am not aware of...
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Old 07-28-14, 07:04 PM   #73
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I had test fit a set of Mafacs, they would work. Zeus is a good call. They are getting $$$ on fleaBay right now.
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Old 07-28-14, 07:41 PM   #74
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Are you open to dual pivot side-pulls? Some cheap DP's work pretty darned well. They look period-correct from a distance, but you would never fool guys like @rhm. Not that fooling people is a goal of yours.

MAFACs are a pain to set up but are terrific brakes.
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Old 07-28-14, 08:03 PM   #75
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So were there 'technical' reasons for the fork design, or was Bates looking for an unmistakable 'trade mark'. One must admit, it's a hard feature to overlook.

For brakes (and I'm not selling), the Monitor Supercam that my Father had on his Paramount would be at least semi period, and, because it's clamped on the fork blades, reach wouldn't be a problem.



This is a 'before' photo, it looks much better after Pastor Bob spiffed it up.
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