1987

The story says that Cino after reteirment was active in the Centurion Equipe project. And you can almost feel it on the seatlug. As Cinellis law is that they sell all frame parts except the SC seatlug. But Centurion Equipe tried to get as close as possible without going to far.

All this is fine by me. But recently I've seen two Centurionss with even a seatlug that is very close to Cinelli SC. And it probably dates before Centurion Equipe. The model is called Centurion Professional. Did Centurion first make full out copies and then managed to get a deal with Cino?

This one of the strange Centurions:
Petit de Cologne / Centurion Professional (1978-1981) | velociao

Another good thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...centurion.html

RobbieTunes

The Centurion Professional was simply a fine lugged bike of Tange tubing that looked a lot like the Italian bikes they were confident they could compete with. I have the next step down, the Semi Pro, and it's a very nice bike.

If you want an even closer "copy" of a Cinelli, by Centurion, check out the 1983-84 Turbo models. Basically, Tange 1-framed SC's without the head lugs, and with Suntour Superbe components on some models, which kind of brought the bike above the SC in performance. Also, the 1985 Prestige, of Tange Prestige tubing, chromed lugged fork crown, and that new-fangled Dura Ace 6-sp indexed componentry.

There are at least two Cinelli frames out there with flying "C" pantos, Cinelli's more so than Centurions. One is blue, and was sold without decals. The other is red, and has a model name, very similar to the blue one.

The Cinelli Equipe Centurion (Cinelli Team Centurion) was a product of collaboration between Centurion's Alan Goldsmith (now with Specialized, but before that, the owner of Bikeology and a factor at Park Pre bikes) and Cinelli. Cino provided introductions, showed Alan his olive groves, and Andreas supervised the production. It's worth noting that the shop they were made in, Chirico in Bussero, had a frame builder who "apprenticed" at Cinelli for 14 years under Cinelli's master frame builder. He likely made the Equipe's of which one shipping container was made, and shipped. The bike flopped in the US market, and it's worth more now than it was new.

1985 saw Centurion offer the Equipe, the Prestige, and the "new" Ironman, plus a very capable Elite RS. Really, too many upper-level bikes in the same market. In 1986, they dropped the Equipe and the Prestige, but offered a new Ironman and the 7000 Aluminum Facet. The Elite RS for 1986 was basically the Comp TA, quick geometry and Tange 2 tubing. They saw the light by 1987 and the Ironman became the flagship.

1987

Thanks @RobbieTunes for excellent information.

Centurion is a fascinating company with a crooked path. Based in California and with connections in Japan, but made cheaper copies of classic frames in Italy. Or am I missing something?

I still can't figure out how Centurion managed to get a deal with Cino himself, especially after they already had done full out copies of Speciale Corsa frames. As Cino was very serious about nurturing the his brand. Was Cino mad on the direction his old company had taken under the new ownership?

This shop: Cicli Chirico in Bussero outside Milan?
https://goo.gl/maps/DAz9x

The Centurion Turbo models I found when googling didn't have Cinelli SC signature seatlug.

What about the other Centurion frames under other brands, I guess Centurion also acted as subcontractors.

wrk101

Well for one thing, Centurion didn't make bikes, they bought them from others. So they didn't knock off bikes. Kind of like my Lotus Supreme. Lotus didn't make bikes either.

Different business, but in my years of mfg, we would make a lot of deals with distributors and people that relabeled our product, that we would have never made with competitors that had mfg facilities.

Robbie can correct me but I have always lumped Univega, Centurion, Nishiki, Lotus and a whole lot more as mktg companies that found excellent partners to build bikes for them.

RobbieTunes

No need for correction. I was careful to say "offered" instead of "made," in regards to Centurion's model lineup. Centurion's models were designed in the US and produced in Japan, pure and simple, to standards, guidelines, and protocol that combined what the designers favored (sort of in an Italian vein, or imitation) with the skill of Japanese craftsmen and quality control processes that most likely came from Deming.

Centurion did not get a deal with Cino himself. He'd long since sold the company to the Columbo family, and was pursuing other interests. Andreas was managing that part of the business by then. Cino and Andreas provided introductions, and Cino, possibly a lack of resistance (or blessing) to any collaboration. Whether it was Andreas' responsibility to OK the deal, or if the decision was made higher up at Columbus, is sort of irrelevant; it was a business deal.

(I believe wrk101 has another of those collaborations, a Lotus-branded model.)

The negotiations that lasted 2 years pretty much focused on the placement and size of the Cinelli logo on the frame. The size was limited, as was the placement, to the L chain stay and on the DT, just above the shifters.

The frame was simply a product which Goldsmith and Centurion wanted done a certain way, in a certain color, with a certain quality (and they got it, if you've ever ridden one). The panto's are simply Cinelli parts used on the frame, which was natural enough for Chirico to do, and there's no reason to believe they were not specified. The Centurion headbadge and DT decals were widely considered to be phlat phugly, but that's what was put on the bike. The polished Cinelli lugs were available on the market at that time, but the tiny flying "C" logo was not stamped on them. All of the lugs were right out of the Cinelli box, and were used on other models by other frame builders of the time.

Centurion really didn't do full-on copies of the SC frame. I've only seen one Centurion model that copied the seat stay caps, and I'm pretty sure that was a Professional, but I could be wrong. There were some Centurions made, and pitched by Alan Goldsmith in catalog sales to dealers, that may have gone even farther, but from what I can recall, there were not Japanese-made models, either, maybe Mexico. I sure don't know that much about those. Centurion's marketed "copies," side by side, were more flattering than blatant copies, and the Centurion's paint was far better, as anyone with a Turbo can verify for you. I'm not sure if the fully chromed frames by Centurion were like that because the Italians did it, or because it was considered good corrosion protection at the time. I had a Simoncini that was produced the same way, and my Basso is, as well.

I'll never know for sure, and won't, because I doubt Alan Goldsmith will sit down with me any time soon, even if he remembers, but the vibe I get is that the Centurions were spec'd to look like nice Italian bikes because it was good design, good execution, and the competitors, like Panasonic, Paramount, Fuji, Peugeot, and others were excellent. They had to be, if a bike like the Equipe flopped. It would certainly sell today for $1295, but with inflation, I figure a $3200 Cinelli Equipe may not do so well, either.

What I can tell you is anecdotal. My SC and my Equipe basically rode the same, but I preferred the Equipe. The elegance of the 1985 Prestige and it's 2x6 DA made it a better production bike than either of the others, and I've never seen one in my size, nor have I ever found a very similar bike, the Panasonic Team USA, in my size. My experience with Cinelli bikes is that they are outstanding frames with a mediocre/average paint job, and could really have benefitted from better groups than they came with. If I had it to buy a new Super Corsa, I'm pretty sure I'd have to find a used 1" threaded fork, a new quill stem and bars, run the best polished Campy group I could find, and be done looking at other women.

To me, right now, especially after Centenario Bartali, the most important thing about many fine frames is not who made them, but what those builders learned from people like Cino Cinelli, and frames are better for it, even modern steel frames. It wasn't just frame design, it was an approach to the craft, the product, and the market. Lots of tributaries, one basic flow. The basic undercurrent at Bartali was the collective nod in the direction of a passion for cycling, and wanting to put that passion on a frame with their name on it. It smacks you right in the face when you're looking at them, and reflected in the people hovering around.

It can take years to find out the real story behind some frames, and I've been sent pictures of one with a Centurion headbadge and everything else on it looking like a Cinelli. That's a pretty good "micro-snapshot" of what happened from about the mid-70's on. I sincerely wish it had happened sooner, so there'd be more of them, Italian frames on the loose, and great imitations.

obrentharris 

Thanks Robbie for once again providing us with more information on these fascinating bikes!
My Equipe has the Cinelli logo on the left chainstay as you describe, but for some reason this bike has the other Cinelli logo on the seat tube instead of the down tube.





Brent