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Old 08-05-14, 10:42 AM   #26
Zaphod Beeblebrox 
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Its not a piece of crap by any means but Panasonic's best effort in 1973 is nowhere near the quality they were putting out in the 80's. The only top of the line part is the crankset.

@OP - Compared to your Airborne Zepplin this is gonna feel like the QE2. I agree that this is not the right frame for that 9s Ultegra group.

Bill don't agonize over this one... you've got nicer bikes. Its just enticing because its orange.
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Old 08-05-14, 10:54 AM   #27
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I was just coming here to say that I thought my frame was butted, and pinged quite nicely when thumped with a fingernail. If mine was a 25" I would probably still have it. I'm right in between the 23 and 25 inch Schwinn size, so I usually opt for the larger frame. It brought $450 +shipping on the week of Christmas, so the buyer wanted it pretty bad I guess.,,,,BD
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Old 08-05-14, 11:57 AM   #28
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I sold the one I had, needed gas money to get to a new job, seemed like a nice bike and I"d probably still have it even though it was one size too big for me.

My vote would be a lube and tune and ride it stock if possible. But not my bike so not my say.
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Old 08-05-14, 03:53 PM   #29
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WOW, thanks for all the posts and opinions; sounds like I opened up a bit of a firestorm! OH, and before I get into a long-winded post, let me share some good news: FedEx now says delivery is scheduled for tomorrow rather than next Monday. Was wondering why it would take a whole week to get from outside Chicago to "outside Buffalo" (way outside, but the nearest big place).

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Originally Posted by Essthreetee View Post
Nice looking bike. Could you take it with you to try out for the time you are away?
Wish I could, but it would have to ride outside of the camper strapped to the roof ladder, and would get all scratched up (apparently, the paint doesn't stick as well on top of the all-over-chrome as it might to bare, primed steel - someone mentioned in another Voyageur thread, that even the clamps on a bike stand could peal it off). I'd be worried about theft/vandalism too. We just have a "Class B" camper, a converted Chevy Express van [RoadTrek], and the only bike that I have that will fit inside is the Montague Navigator folding bike. It's a boat, but at least it has 700c wheels & tires. Would love to bring the Airborne, but ...

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Originally Posted by Metacortex View Post
The crank arms/chainrings 130mm BCD. The bottom bracket is a standard 68mm with English 1.37" x 24T threads and the original spindle is 112mm asymmetric: 1973 Shimano Dura-Ace Catalogue Page da6
Thanks; good info.

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Worst idea ever. Sorry just my strong personal opinion. Leave it how it is, or sell it and buy something else. I also would not even test ride it half a block unless all of the bearings have been cleaned and re-lubed.,,,,BD

I didn't mean to sound harsh. Just meant that you should "embrace the vintage", rather than trying to to make it into a modern bike. I've been guilty of that a couple of times,and while the bike does ride better, it loses the feel of what you buy a vintage bike for in the first place. Also things you didn't count on start coming into play. Like the cage of the FD being so narrow that the chain starts rubbing under hard acceleration, from frame flex. I had that happen on my 9speed Super Le Tour project.
OK, thanks, and noted. But I'm a weenie, and the chances of my flexing the frame are "slim & none". : )

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I was going to guess 130BCD. I used a TA triplizer on a early '90s Shimano 105 crankset to lower the gearing on my '83 Paramount. Works really well.

XXCycle in France is selling a Stronglight version at this time for about $28, which is a super deal! It also comes in 38T, 40T, 42T, 44T and 46T versions. I've had great success ordering from them with arrival in 10 days or less.

Here's the TA version for a significant increase in price to about $66. I can vouch that the TA version is very well made.
Thanks. More good info, and nice bike Padre.

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Since you asked for opinions- I'm assuming you actually really want the opinion.... I pretty much agree with Bikedued.

The World Voyageur is not... what's the word I'm looking for... ..."lithe." It's a straight gauge cromoly bike. It's robust. It's a tank. It's made from the best quality gaspipe. But it's going to have an excellent ride.

I don't know what your experience is with bikes- but I'd recommend taking a little more time to learn about your bike and figure out what your bike does like it is. It's a REALLY cool bike, both as a bike and historically. It looks like you've scored an EXCELLENT example of a nearly stock 40 year old bike- an excellent collectable bike to be proud of; ride it for a while and figure out why these bikes have the great reputation they have.

If you love the bike, you love the aesthetic of it, but you really need the shifting changed- go for it. (you'll probably need something with a longer reach than the Ultegra brakes).

If the World Voyageur is not your thing- keep looking for something that is your thing. Something that might just look nice with a 9s Ultegra group on it.

My guess- from what I gather from your excitement and enthusiasm in your posts, I think the World Voyageur is going to be a bit too stout for you. A bit more... 1970s-y than what you're after. To echo my opinion from the other thread- one of the mid 80s "flagship" level touring bikes really sound like your best match. A Reynolds or Columbus (or proprietary) double or triple butted frame- something with the "built- ready to ride" weight around 25 pounds... components that are much closer to "modern." There was a window where "Touring" bikes were a prime consideration in the bicycle lineup and the design and technology were actually a focus for bike companies. Somewhere in that 1984-1986 time frame. Bikes with long chainstays, class A tubing, well thought out geometries, all the braze ons you can think of, Class A componentry, and a real graceful, elegant style, but still looking like "business."

There's always going to be some sort of consideration when putting new components on an old bike- for old touring bikes- it's going to be 27" wheels and canti brakes that'll adjust well enough and 1" headsets.

I've had thoughts about replacing the drivetrain on my 1985 Trek 720- while I'm realistically pretty close to going to Suntour Command shifters on there, I've actually thought about a 6600 triple Ultegra group for that bike. I don't know that I'd do that to my 1978 Trek 730 frame.

It is your bike to do with as you wish- you asked for opinion; I don't know you at all, but I'd love to see you happy on an old, classically styled bike.
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At 27.5 to 28 pounds, not far off from most of the 1980s nice touring bikes. Many of them were around 27 pounds. The 1980s touring bikes will give you better gearing, all triples, some half step with a granny. Could probably sell that WV and upgrade if that is your desire.

Even non-Vintage touring bikes are pretty nice. The Trek 520 and the Novara Randonee to mention just two. I have seen and bought versions of both of these at reasonable prices, much less than it would cost to upgrade the WV.

But with the WV, you have something unique. Single year production, Panasonic producing their best for Schwinn, lots of top of the line, juicy parts.
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Originally Posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox View Post
Its not a piece of crap by any means but Panasonic's best effort in 1973 is nowhere near the quality they were putting out in the 80's. The only top of the line part is the crankset.

@OP - Compared to your Airborne Zepplin this is gonna feel like the QE2. I agree that this is not the right frame for that 9s Ultegra group.

Bill don't agonize over this one... you've got nicer bikes. Its just enticing because its orange.
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I sold the one I had, needed gas money to get to a new job, seemed like a nice bike and I"d probably still have it even though it was one size too big for me.

My vote would be a lube and tune and ride it stock if possible. But not my bike so not my say.
Yes I did ask for opinions, and value yours; you guys are much more knowledgeable about these bikes (heck, any bikes) than I. OK, back to what I'm trying to accomplish here: I would like a nice looking, lugged (preferably chromed or contrasting colored lugs) steel bike, with a relaxed geometry. Not looking to tour with it, I just like to ride 20-50 mile solo road trips, for fun and exercise. I tend to average 14-16 mph (sometimes better, sometimes worse), and perhaps 30-40 feet average elevation change per mile, sometimes more (rolling hills around here). Most of the hills are 3-7% grades, but the occasional one goes to 10% or more; I don't have the legs or lungs for those without grannie gearing (like down around 23 gear-inches). I have knocked off five trips over 50 miles this year, three of them centuries, and a total of over 1400 miles for the year. And I'm looking for a stable bike, one I can take my hands off the handlebars now and then, to zip up my jersey or whatever (how do the guys on the TdF do it?).

Weight is certainly a concern since I'm only a skinny 5'-11"/152#; an extra 8-10# is a lot percentage-wise for me. On the other hand, the Montague Navigator mentioned above is up in that weight league, and I did 42 miles on it yesterday. And also on the other hand, as I said I'm riding for fun and exercise, so if I go 1/2 mph slower because of the weight, I pretty much have done the same amount of exercise (but let's not get on a scientific discussion of all that ...)

I started out this quest looking at modern steel bikes, but didn't find any suitable ones. Doesn't mean that they're not out there, just that I didn't trip across them. Rivendell Roadeo's are nice but still a bit on the heavy side (I'm told). And like anything that I found custom made, it's in the $2k range or more just for the frame and fork. I might be able to swing that, but I'd much rather not. Perhaps when I get on the bike, I'll find that I like the barend shifters (or at least don't hate them like I do downtube shifters), Perhaps that and a Triplizer and some modern brake pads will do it for me. I'll give it an honest try (but without investing in the Triplizer at first). But if that doesn't work for me, what next? Anyone got a trade? : )

Thanks, Dick
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Old 08-05-14, 04:43 PM   #30
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FWIW: I met a 65 year old rider last year in Utah, that was riding across the USA (left WA DC seven weeks earlier). Anyway, he was on a Surly Long Haul Trucker, self supported, with full camping gear. He weighed his bike WITHOUT water, it was 95 pounds! Don't worry about this WV being "heavy".
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Old 08-05-14, 04:53 PM   #31
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@OP I wouldn't hesitate at putting 9 speed ****mano drive train on it just save the old stuff so you have it. The old stuff for sure looks better than any ****mano you can put on it but the ****mano will shift better (when tired) and offer a much larger gear range, steps, and will be bullet proof and fixable at any Tom, Dick, and Harry's.
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Old 08-05-14, 09:47 PM   #32
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Those chrome lugs look great!
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Old 08-06-14, 12:08 AM   #33
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Adjusting for inflation, you paid about a third of MSRP in 1973 dollars. I would have tried to get it for a fifth of MSRP but it's hard to do if the seller doesn't take offers.
The bike has a distinctive look. Good luck with it!
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Old 08-06-14, 10:01 AM   #34
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You can take this feedback for what it is worth, but I used a 1973 Schwinn World Voyageur as a base for my travel bike (fitted with S&S frame connectors from Bilenky in Philadelphia to allow transport on an airplane). The previous owner had already sanded the chrome and repainted. I ended up powder coating, adding braze-ons for shifters, water bottle and cables runs. I added a carbon fork, 700c wheels/tires and run the 9-speed Ultegra setup. The finished bike weighs around 22lbs.

I bought this bike because it was steel and steel was required for Bilenky's work to put the connectors in. Since then I developed a passion for steel/vintage and have bought a number of vintage steel bikes and could have found better candidates to accept the modern setup (braze-ons). I would also have kept my steel fork or gone with a carbon fork that has a steel or aluminum steerer. This might sound strange, but the bike feels too light in the front compared to the back.

I did my research on the early 70s World Voyageur and like others have said the quality is good and all the other things aside, it is a nice rider that I have logged almost 1800 miles on.

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Old 08-06-14, 07:39 PM   #35
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Today's update:

The bike arrived via FedEx, and wasn't damaged in shipment: it couldn't be, the seller had wrapped every tube in cardboard and bubble wrap. It took me about 20 minutes to unwrap everything! Meanwhile, I had contacted the seller to see when the last time it was ridden, and when the last time it was serviced. He said he had bought it at an estate sale 5 years ago, and had never ridden or serviced it.

I gave it a good degreasing and washing. The crank and rear wheel seemed a bit stiff, and the front wheel hub had a lot of play in it. Since I didn't have the proper tools for this type of bottom bracket, I took the whole bike to my LBS. The owner there spotted the same stuff, plus a (slightly?) bent rear axle, which he said is fairly common with freewheel type wheels. He's going to give it a complete service and tune-up, and I'll have it back tomorrow afternoon to take for its first test ride. I'm also having him put new brake pads on as the ones on it are like stones. Thanks to those who advised servicing the bike before riding it!

I did a quick weight of the bike (including the aluminum rear rack which I removed shortly afterwards). Without pedals, it was about 25.8 pounds. BTW, someone asked about the wheels, and they are Araya 26x1-1/4 with Shimano hubs (didn't see anything about what "flavor" of Shimano, so maybe there was only one back then). They are heavy, but I didn't weigh them. The tires look quite good, barely used; didn't note brand and size though.

Thanks again for all the comments, suggestions, advice; keep them coming.

Regards, Dick
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Old 08-06-14, 08:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
FWIW: I met a 65 year old rider last year in Utah, that was riding across the USA (left WA DC seven weeks earlier). Anyway, he was on a Surly Long Haul Trucker, self supported, with full camping gear. He weighed his bike WITHOUT water, it was 95 pounds! Don't worry about this WV being "heavy".
Wow!

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Those chrome lugs look great!
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Adjusting for inflation, you paid about a third of MSRP in 1973 dollars. I would have tried to get it for a fifth of MSRP but it's hard to do if the seller doesn't take offers.
The bike has a distinctive look. Good luck with it!
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
@OP I wouldn't hesitate at putting 9 speed ****mano drive train on it just save the old stuff so you have it. The old stuff for sure looks better than any ****mano you can put on it but the ****mano will shift better (when tired) and offer a much larger gear range, steps, and will be bullet proof and fixable at any Tom, Dick, and Harry's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revracer View Post
You can take this feedback for what it is worth, but I used a 1973 Schwinn World Voyageur as a base for my travel bike (fitted with S&S frame connectors from Bilenky in Philadelphia to allow transport on an airplane). The previous owner had already sanded the chrome and repainted. I ended up powder coating, adding braze-ons for shifters, water bottle and cables runs. I added a carbon fork, 700c wheels/tires and run the 9-speed Ultegra setup. The finished bike weighs around 22lbs.

I bought this bike because it was steel and steel was required for Bilenky's work to put the connectors in. Since then I developed a passion for steel/vintage and have bought a number of vintage steel bikes and could have found better candidates to accept the modern setup (braze-ons). I would also have kept my steel fork or gone with a carbon fork that has a steel or aluminum steerer. This might sound strange, but the bike feels too light in the front compared to the back.

I did my research on the early 70s World Voyageur and like others have said the quality is good and all the other things aside, it is a nice rider that I have logged almost 1800 miles on.
Ah, a couple votes for a modern drivetrain! Perhaps I should have made this a poll. : ) Thanks. The jury's out until I have a chance to do a decent shakeout of the bike in its current state ... BTW, nice looking bike Revracer.

Regards, Dick
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Old 08-07-14, 05:08 AM   #37
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on receiving the Voyageur early and in great condition. on taking it to the LBS for service. Hopefully he/she will have a replacement axle for the rear hub. The freewheel could possibly need to be serviced as well. Try not to let the LBS trash it. It can probably be brought back to life and be used for decades to come.
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Old 08-07-14, 05:26 AM   #38
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It is just my humble opinion that S&S connectors should not be put on any other bike than utility use or touring bikes, in which the main value is only in the USE of the bike. IE: Not something old, not something collectable, not something you would ever want a resale value on, or would ever plan to resell. In other words, there's no way in hell I would ever consider installing them on, or buying a bike of this vintage that had them installed. I don't care how high the "quality level" of these connectors is, the bike in my humble opinion is forever ruined. I spoke my peace and didn't sugar coat it. It's how I feel, and that will never change.,,,,BD
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Old 08-07-14, 07:10 PM   #39
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Quote:
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on receiving the Voyageur early and in great condition. on taking it to the LBS for service. Hopefully he/she will have a replacement axle for the rear hub. The freewheel could possibly need to be serviced as well. Try not to let the LBS trash it. It can probably be brought back to life and be used for decades to come.
Thanks again Bob. I did ask the LBS to either put a shop rag on the top tube, or clamp it on the seat post, so as not to damage the paint; they did the latter.

... Well, today's news: I rode the bike for 28 miles on one of my "usual routes", and I like it. Well, I don't much care for the drivetrain (more on that later), but the bike just felt good. In fact so good, that I attempted to ride "no hands", and low and behold, it worked. I did this four times for about 30 seconds each time (didn't want to push my luck), but this is just great. I haven't been able to do this since high school or college, and that was long, long ago. (See my thread on bike stability: What makes a bike stable?)

Although this bike is about 7-8 pounds heavier than my Airborne Zeppelin, I didn't really notice. My average speed for the trip wasn't that much off my "normal" time, and I was taking it easy on the descents (more on that later too). And I have never, ever sat on a Brooks saddle before, and I liked this one from the start (except for the damned Whitworth nuts on the seat rail adjuster - don't have any of those wrenches). I only did a cursory adjustment of the seat and handlebars before I left, so I had to double back twice to better adjust those. Even so, I rode most of the way in the drops, and I most often ride on the hoods on the Airborne. The brakes worked very well (and I got a test of that once!), except that both rims have slight defects at the seams, more the rear than the front, so I felt the 1/rev (once per rev) from that.

The power train (52-39 crank, 14-17-21-26-32 cassette): I did almost the whole trip in the middle three cogs and small chainring, with some use of the smallest cog, and also use of the largest cog on the two steepest hills. This is similar to the gear ratios I'd be using on the Airborne. The bad news about the drivetrain is that in the top four cogs, the rear cassette/derailleur was either auto-shifting, or skipping, or something. I tried all sorts of trimming (front as well as rear) but to no avail. It felt as though it was trying to downshift, i.e., catching on the edge of the next larger cog, moving up "the wall" for a second, and then slipping back, but it could have been something else. Anyway, highly annoying. I'll have to check the chain and see if that is "stretched", and perhaps causing this "skipping". The other thing is that the barcons are kind of tough to get to (well, easier than downtube shifters, but not nearly as nice as the brifters I'm so used to), although a handlebar with a shorter length leg in the drop section (not sure what that is called: leg, foot?) would help.

I only tried the large chainring a couple of times, and shifting in and out of it is fine; trimming is easy in the front too. The problem with using it wasn't the shifting, but rather the front end shimmy that I got going down hills. Have to recheck the front axle and head to see if there is excessive looseness, but it didn't seem that way.

Regards, Dick

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Old 08-07-14, 10:45 PM   #40
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It is top of the line from 1973 for the imported bikes.

Point of reference, seat post on the OP bike is not original. I would seek an original seat post, it was a nice one (SR Campy clone??)

Somewhere, Stan has a page for it (it was not in the original catalog). I too would be surprised if the tubing was not butted, given the high grade components, full chrome, and other $$ details.

Well, the decal says butted tubing, so that cinches it.

You guys ARE KILLING ME! I have two right now, one totally original, in my size. I have too many bikes.... Something has to go. Lets see: 1986 chrome Katakura, stays. 1987 Prologue, stays. 1987 and 1989 Cimarrons, stay. Bike I built at frame school, stays. That's five.

That leaves the 1973 World Voyaguer, 1974 Sport Tourer (also 100% original), 1986 Lotus Supreme (not original), Colnago Master Lite, Tomassini Competizione, 1984 Trek 620, 1974 Paramount track frame set, several Paramount series bikes, etc.
Absolutely correct, the seatpost is a smaller diameter than original, and even with the shim that they added, they (and I) have to really squish the clamp together to make it hold. So much so that I cannot tell for sure (even after spreading the clamp) what the correct diameter is. Might be 26.8mm, but all my measurements are lower than that because it is distorted somewhat. What's the best way to round it back up?

Does anyone have a picture of the correct seatpost, so I can try to at least get something similar. Or won't that style of seatpost work with this Brooks seat?

Thanks, Dick
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Old 08-08-14, 07:54 AM   #41
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Very nice, Dick! Looks like you've found the bike you were looking for, and it's a beauty. We know over time you'll fix it up and make it 'yours', please keep us posted.
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Old 08-08-14, 08:16 AM   #42
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The power train (52-39 crank, 14-17-21-26-32 cassette): I did almost the whole trip in the middle three cogs and small chainring, with some use of the smallest cog, and also use of the largest cog on the two steepest hills. This is similar to the gear ratios I'd be using on the Airborne. The bad news about the drivetrain is that in the top four cogs, the rear cassette/derailleur was either auto-shifting, or skipping, or something. I tried all sorts of trimming (front as well as rear) but to no avail. It felt as though it was trying to downshift, i.e., catching on the edge of the next larger cog, moving up "the wall" for a second, and then slipping back, but it could have been something else. Anyway, highly annoying. I'll have to check the chain and see if that is "stretched", and perhaps causing this "skipping". The other thing is that the barcons are kind of tough to get to (well, easier than downtube shifters, but not nearly as nice as the brifters I'm so used to), although a handlebar with a shorter length leg in the drop section (not sure what that is called: leg, foot?) would help.

I only tried the large chainring a couple of times, and shifting in and out of it is fine; trimming is easy in the front too. The problem with using it wasn't the shifting, but rather the front end shimmy that I got going down hills. Have to recheck the front axle and head to see if there is excessive looseness, but it didn't seem that way.

Regards, Dick
sounds like you have a worn freewheel and/or chain.. typical for a bike this old.. take it back to the LBS you had it serviced and have them quote you a new one.. if you have the tools to do it yourself, amazon is your friend, you can get a nice sunlite freewheel or shimano freewheel for about 20 bucks, a nice KMC chain runs around 10-15..good luck
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Old 08-08-14, 08:26 AM   #43
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Does anyone have a picture of the correct seatpost, so I can try to at least get something similar.

Thanks, Dick
The original seat post is an odd duck. I forget the brand (if I was home I could go look it up). Haven't seen it used on any other bike. And I certainly forget the size. If someone hasn't answered by then I can look it up tonight or tomorrow morning.

EDIT:
Some discussion on seatpost:
diameter of schwinn world voyageur seat post?
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Old 08-08-14, 09:09 AM   #44
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In addition to the possible worn out chain or cogs, also look for a bent RD hanger or other problems there
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Old 08-08-14, 11:02 AM   #45
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The original seat post is an odd duck. I forget the brand (if I was home I could go look it up). Haven't seen it used on any other bike. And I certainly forget the size. If someone hasn't answered by then I can look it up tonight or tomorrow morning.

EDIT:
Some discussion on seatpost:
diameter of schwinn world voyageur seat post?
Thanks for info and the link which says 26.6mm diameter (which sort of confirms my finding of "under 26.8mm"). Velo Orange has a Uno SP-248 Seatpost (Uno SP-248 Seatpost) in 25.0, 25.4, 26.2, 26.4, 26.8, 27.0, and 27.2mm diameters. Would the 26.4mm be the best, or should I go smaller and shim? And will this seatpost work with the Brooks B5N saddle?

Regards, Dick
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Old 08-08-14, 12:04 PM   #46
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I've found that haven't the right size really makes sense. There are a bunch of reasonably priced (although maybe not the prettiest) seat posts available in 26.6.

Components - Seatposts - 26.6 - Niagara Cycle

As far as I know saddle mounts are pretty standard (other than the Ideale Alloy ones), so there shouldn't be a problem any seat post with a Brooks B5N.
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Old 08-08-14, 01:18 PM   #47
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It's true that freewheel-type rear hubs of that era were prone to axle bending and breakage. That's why Shimano invented the cassette hub. We really needed them to do that. I still ride on freewheel hubs without worry, but there is that difference.
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Old 08-08-14, 01:36 PM   #48
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Worst idea ever. Sorry just my strong personal opinion. Leave it how it is, or sell it and buy something else. I also would not even test ride it half a block unless all of the bearings have been cleaned and re-lubed.,,,,BD

I didn't mean to sound harsh. Just meant that you should "embrace the vintage", rather than trying to to make it into a modern bike. I've been guilty of that a couple of times,and while the bike does ride better, it loses the feel of what you buy a vintage bike for in the first place. Also things you didn't count on start coming into play. Like the cage of the FD being so narrow that the chain starts rubbing under hard acceleration, from frame flex. I had that happen on my 9speed Super Le Tour project.
I have a '74 Le Tour and I only have 126mm in the dropouts. Zaphod said he "stuffed" a 130mm hub in his WV. How much space is there in the WV's dropouts?
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Old 08-08-14, 01:38 PM   #49
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I've found that haven't the right size really makes sense. There are a bunch of reasonably priced (although maybe not the prettiest) seat posts available in 26.6.

Components - Seatposts - 26.6 - Niagara Cycle

As far as I know saddle mounts are pretty standard (other than the Ideale Alloy ones), so there shouldn't be a problem any seat post with a Brooks B5N.
Thanks. But with the seat tube "buggered" a tad due to the way-too-small post that was on it, am I going to be able to get the "correct" 26.6mm post in?

Regards, Dick
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Old 08-08-14, 02:02 PM   #50
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I have a '74 Le Tour and I only have 126mm in the dropouts. Zaphod said he "stuffed" a 130mm hub in his WV. How much space is there in the WV's dropouts?
Unfortunately my WV was sold in late 2010. I did have to spread the drops on my SLT which has also been sold off, but I did a quick hand spread and it fit on the first try. I hand spread by standing beside the frame, grabbing the drop near me with my right hand, and put the palm of my other hand on the inside of the other side dropout. Not the most acientific way, but it works for a few mm's of extra space.YMMV:-),,,,BD
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