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-   -   1973 Schwinn World Voyageur - possible upgrade (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/963815-1973-schwinn-world-voyageur-possible-upgrade.html)

Zaphod Beeblebrox 08-08-14 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Randy (Post 17018817)
I have a '74 Le Tour and I only have 126mm in the dropouts. Zaphod said he "stuffed" a 130mm hub in his WV. How much space is there in the WV's dropouts?

There's as much space as you can muscle. Its steel, and not heat treated.... you can stick a 130 or a 135 in there with enough effort and not wreck anything. People love to make a big deal about putting a wider hub in than a frame is spaced for or having to cold set a frame just to gain a few mm..... its typical internet forum hyperbole. Just man up and spring the rear triangle open a little, its not difficult and if you manage to break a steel frame doing it then you are more man than I am. This is really not a big deal.
Remember the Mantra, its just a bike.

Bikedued 08-08-14 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox (Post 17018893)
There's as much space as you can muscle. Its steel, and not heat treated.... you can stick a 130 or a 135 in there with enough effort and not wreck anything. People love to make a big deal about putting a wider hub in than a frame is spaced for or having to cold set a frame just to gain a few mm..... its typical internet forum hyperbole. Just man up and spring the rear triangle open a little, its not difficult and if you manage to break a steel frame doing it then you are more man than I am. This is really not a big deal.
Remember the Mantra, its just a bike.

The Univega Gran Turismo took all of my strength to get the eight speed hub into
I probably could have ridden it without a quick release, the fit was that tight! In himdsight that was one bike I should have cold set.,,,,BD

Zaphod Beeblebrox 08-08-14 02:27 PM

Arrr, some be more stout than others.

noglider 08-08-14 02:46 PM

@Zaphod Beeblebrox, :lol::lol::lol:!

In about 1991, I had Weigle spread my dropouts on my McLean. He took it from 120 to 126. I'm considering taking it to 130! Some would think this is a crime or dangerous. Maybe it's dangerous, but I wouldn't worry about it with a World Voyageur. It's not that valuable a bike. It would be a shame if something happened but (1) it's still just a World Voyageur and (2) it's really not likely.

Permanently spreading has an advantage, though it's not a must: Once you change the spacing permanently, it's possible to readjust the dropouts to parallel. This is good for the health of your hub.

Pendergast 08-08-14 02:50 PM

I haven't bothered to cold set my 1988 Bridgestone RB2. I have it neo-retro with 10 speed cassette, brifters, and clipless pedals. Sorry, Grant. ;-p

Uncle Randy 08-08-14 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17019038)
@Zaphod Beeblebrox, :lol::lol::lol:!

In about 1991, I had Weigle spread my dropouts on my McLean. He took it from 120 to 126. I'm considering taking it to 130! Some would think this is a crime or dangerous. Maybe it's dangerous, but I wouldn't worry about it with a World Voyageur. It's not that valuable a bike. It would be a shame if something happened but (1) it's still just a World Voyageur and (2) it's really not likely.

Permanently spreading has an advantage, though it's not a must: Once you change the spacing permanently, it's possible to readjust the dropouts to parallel. This is good for the health of your hub.

What other bikes had chrome lugs? I can't think of any but maybe someone else can. It's a unique bike and for that reason I wouldn't mess with the frame and make it a 27 speed bike.

noglider 08-08-14 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Randy (Post 17019123)
What other bikes had chrome lugs? I can't think of any but maybe someone else can. It's a unique bike and for that reason I wouldn't mess with the frame and make it a 27 speed bike.

There were quite a few bikes with chrome lugs. Raleigh International, Windsor something-or-other, Atala Grand Prix come to mind.

Uncle Randy 08-08-14 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendergast (Post 17019053)
I haven't bothered to cold set my 1988 Bridgestone RB2. I have it neo-retro with 10 speed cassette, brifters, and clipless pedals. Sorry, Grant. ;-p

I didn't have to cold set my '92 RB-2 to use a set of Reynolds Alta comp wheels. I'm using the original 7 speed cassette with 2- 2mm spacers. Call me a retrogrouch, I don't care.

bikemore 08-08-14 03:34 PM

Back to the OP question. What was done to bugger the seat tube? Would a little filing make it more uniform? Can you have the guy at the bike shop ream it to make it right?

Bikedued 08-08-14 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17019153)
There were quite a few bikes with chrome lugs. Raleigh International, Windsor something-or-other, Atala Grand Prix come to mind.

Romics, Geoffrey Butler(mine at least) Schwinn Paramount, Olmo, Volkscycle, Italvega, Carabela, sheesh almost everyone at one point or another... The amount of chrome lugged bikes out there can boggle the mind, :lol:,,,,BD

I need Raleigh International. Seriously I do! I already have a mid seventies Competition in nice shape, a same era Professional, and numerous Super Courses. Never had the luck of running across a chrome lugged International.


The WV I had. Man I loved it, but I really needed the next size up. Panaracer tires, all new everything, vintage Brooks. Still have this saddle, just not the bike. Wrap was original and pristine condition once it was cleaned after years of neglect!

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/CIMG0197.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...r/DSCN4163.jpg

bikemore 08-08-14 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicktill (Post 17018823)
Thanks. But with the seat tube "buggered" a tad due to the way-too-small post that was on it, am I going to be able to get the "correct" 26.6mm post in?

Regards, Dick

Well I just got to the basement. Clearly my WV with original seatpost is 26.6. The other (my third is in another location, I don't see it often ) is 26.4. So maybe a 26.4 will work. I would still look into smoothing the inside of the seat post - at least near the top.

Bikedued 08-08-14 05:06 PM

A brake wheel cylinder hone is what you might have to use to get it smooth as it should be. I think Lisle makes one, and it's available at most decent auto parts stores. Make sure to keep the stones as far down as possible, it would probably do a little paint damage if it came out at too high a speed. And make sure the lug looks round, and the gap in the rear not tapered narrower at the top. Should be a rewarding not too expensive repair. Something that should have been done during frame building, IMHO. I have more than a few bikes where seatpost gouging is a problem, so I need to follow my own advice.;),,,,BD

In my defense I have been playing with my aluminum bikes lately.....

Uncle Randy 08-08-14 07:53 PM

Seat post question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dicktill (Post 17018286)
Thanks for info and the link which says 26.6mm diameter (which sort of confirms my finding of "under 26.8mm"). Velo Orange has a Uno SP-248 Seatpost (Uno SP-248 Seatpost) in 25.0, 25.4, 26.2, 26.4, 26.8, 27.0, and 27.2mm diameters. Would the 26.4mm be the best, or should I go smaller and shim? And will this seatpost work with the Brooks B5N saddle?

Regards, Dick

I'm posting this because my '74 Le Tour came out of the same factory in Japan. The original seat post is 25.4mm with a removable clamp at the top that is stamped "made in England". I had used this post and clamp with a 70's era Brooks B-17. There is a shim in the seat tube and without the shim the seat tube measures 26.4mm. (I use a digital caliper). The original English clamp didn't work well with the newer non-Brooks saddle I replaced it with so I got a Promax Lite 25.4mm seatpost on ebay from Abaxo and left the shim in the seat tube. This is the seat post sold by another seller.
Seat Post Promax Lite 25 4 mm w Clamp 300mm Silver 25 4mm Mountain Road Bike | eBay

Uncle Randy 08-08-14 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17019038)
@Zaphod Beeblebrox, :lol::lol::lol:!

In about 1991, I had Weigle spread my dropouts on my McLean. He took it from 120 to 126. I'm considering taking it to 130! Some would think this is a crime or dangerous. Maybe it's dangerous, but I wouldn't worry about it with a World Voyageur. It's not that valuable a bike. It would be a shame if something happened but (1) it's still just a World Voyageur and (2) it's really not likely.

Permanently spreading has an advantage, though it's not a must: Once you change the spacing permanently, it's possible to readjust the dropouts to parallel. This is good for the health of your hub.

Tom, are you saying that you can cold set it only once or that you can't go back to a smaller spacing? Do you put the dropout in a vise and move the frame to get them parallel? If the dropouts aren't parallel, does that create any problems with the quick release?

dicktill 08-08-14 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikemore (Post 17019193)
Back to the OP question. What was done to bugger the seat tube? Would a little filing make it more uniform? Can you have the guy at the bike shop ream it to make it right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikemore (Post 17019342)
Well I just got to the basement. Clearly my WV with original seatpost is 26.6. The other (my third is in another location, I don't see it often ) is 26.4. So maybe a 26.4 will work. I would still look into smoothing the inside of the seat post - at least near the top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikedued (Post 17019411)
A brake wheel cylinder hone is what you might have to use to get it smooth as it should be. I think Lisle makes one, and it's available at most decent auto parts stores. Make sure to keep the stones as far down as possible, it would probably do a little paint damage if it came out at too high a speed. And make sure the lug looks round, and the gap in the rear not tapered narrower at the top. Should be a rewarding not too expensive repair. Something that should have been done during frame building, IMHO. I have more than a few bikes where seatpost gouging is a problem, so I need to follow my own advice.;),,,,BD

In my defense I have been playing with my aluminum bikes lately.....

The seat post is "buggered" purely because the new seat post, even with the thin shim they added, required the clamp to be tightened to where the gap in back was fully closed at the top. I opened it back up with a big screwdriver, but the hole is not round.

I probably can get it reamed, but isn't it unlikely that the (very small) LBS is going to have this odd-sized reamer? Or are the reamers tapered? OTOH, I have a brake cylinder hone, so I can try that first. How deep is the hole that certain size, i.e. is it just for the length of the lug or less, or does it go a long way down the seat tube?

But if I'm going to have it reamed, would it make sense to have it reamed to 26.8mm, so it would be more standard and there would be more choice in posts?

Thanks, Dick

P.S.: Just did a 51 mile ride on my Airborne today as sort of a back-to-back-to-back test, and while I far preferred the ride of the Voyageur, the shifting on the Airborne is awful nice ...

Zaphod Beeblebrox 08-09-14 09:25 AM

Embrace the friction dude. If you don't have at least one friction shifting bike I think you sort of owe it to yourself as a guy who bought a vintage bike to friction shift at least one bike.

If you modernize this enough it will just be just like your Airborne....just heavy and old.
I kept mine heavy but now it sports some 80's Shimano 7 speed SIS, so its not like I haven't modernized mine.

RandolphCarter 08-09-14 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicktill (Post 17016466)
The bad news about the drivetrain is that in the top four cogs, the rear cassette/derailleur was either auto-shifting, or skipping, or something. I tried all sorts of trimming (front as well as rear) but to no avail. It felt as though it was trying to downshift, i.e., catching on the edge of the next larger cog, moving up "the wall" for a second, and then slipping back, but it could have been something else. Anyway, highly annoying. I'll have to check the chain and see if that is "stretched", and perhaps causing this "skipping".

In addition to the suggestions about chain, freewheel, and derailleur hangers, you may also want to take apart the rear derailleur cage and clean and lube the cogs. They may also need to be replaced if the teeth are really worn.


Quote:

Originally Posted by dicktill (Post 17016466)
The problem with using it wasn't the shifting, but rather the front end shimmy that I got going down hills. Have to recheck the front axle and head to see if there is excessive looseness, but it didn't seem that way.

If the axle and headset aren't the problem, it might be the tires. Do you have the same tires and tubes on the bike that came with it? Old, dry tires that have been sitting in one position for years? The tire casing may be deformed and you only notice extra vibration at higher speeds. I have a Centurion with a wobble that went away after replacing the tires.

Looks like you've ended up with the best of possible outcomes - you have a neat old bike you can ride and enjoy right now, and you have an easy upgrade path with lots of options.

You had asked for opinion about possible upgrades - did you buy this bike to look at it, ride it a few times a year on a nice Sunday afternoon, or put lots of miles on it?

If you want to spend several days a week in the saddle, I'd carefully take the old parts off, and replace the levers, wheels, cranks, derailleurs, and brakes. Then you have a sweet riding steel frame with comfortable geometry, and shifting/braking that is pleasant to use. Another bonus is MUCH greater parts availability and serviceability - like if you are on an extended vacation, trip over your bike, and crunch the rear derailleur. Much easier getting a new rear derailleur to match current parts, rather than 40 year old parts.

I'm in the process of doing an upgrade on my Trek 310, with Shimano 105, as time and money permit.

One request - please do not put a wheelset with deep v-section aero rims and fewer than 32 spokes on that bike. It would just look goofy. http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

dicktill 08-12-14 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandolphCarter (Post 17020861)
In addition to the suggestions about chain, freewheel, and derailleur hangers, you may also want to take apart the rear derailleur cage and clean and lube the cogs. They may also need to be replaced if the teeth are really worn.

If the axle and headset aren't the problem, it might be the tires. Do you have the same tires and tubes on the bike that came with it? Old, dry tires that have been sitting in one position for years? The tire casing may be deformed and you only notice extra vibration at higher speeds. I have a Centurion with a wobble that went away after replacing the tires.

Hi Randolph, thanks for your posting, and sorry for the slow response. I had hoped to fix up the skip in the drivetrain and the possible shake in the front end and re-test, but haven't yet. BTW, the tires look to be pretty new and nice, definitely not dry-rotted. But the bike was definitely "sitting" for at least the last five years so there could be flat spots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandolphCarter (Post 17020861)
Looks like you've ended up with the best of possible outcomes - you have a neat old bike you can ride and enjoy right now, and you have an easy upgrade path with lots of options.

You had asked for opinion about possible upgrades - did you buy this bike to look at it, ride it a few times a year on a nice Sunday afternoon, or put lots of miles on it?

If you want to spend several days a week in the saddle, I'd carefully take the old parts off, and replace the levers, wheels, cranks, derailleurs, and brakes. Then you have a sweet riding steel frame with comfortable geometry, and shifting/braking that is pleasant to use. Another bonus is MUCH greater parts availability and serviceability - like if you are on an extended vacation, trip over your bike, and crunch the rear derailleur. Much easier getting a new rear derailleur to match current parts, rather than 40 year old parts.

In answer to your question, I plan (hope) to make this my regular bike, and put lots of miles on it. And I like your idea/advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandolphCarter (Post 17020861)
I'm in the process of doing an upgrade on my Trek 310, with Shimano 105, as time and money permit.

One request - please do not put a wheelset with deep v-section aero rims and fewer than 32 spokes on that bike. It would just look goofy. :P

Totally agreed, there is no way I'd put deep V-section rims and/or fewer than 32 spokes on and/or black rims. I might just put new hubs on these Araya rims (they are 36 spoke), or if I go to 700c's, they'd be Mavic Open Pro.

Good luck with your Trek 310 build!

Regards, Dick


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