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-   -   Scott/Matthauser Finned Brake Shoes On Calipers (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/964117-scott-matthauser-finned-brake-shoes-calipers.html)

jyl 08-07-14 08:40 AM

Sigh. Something else I didn't know that I needed until I realized that I didn't have it. If I may ask, at what online store might one purchase these unneeded but required brake shoes?

jimmuller 08-07-14 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy (Post 17014616)
You're correct, they're slightly curved to match the rim.

What bike are these on, Jim?

The Motobecane. Those Weinmann Carrera brakes and the pads were purchased for a bike I built up for my sweetie some time ago. They were way overkill for that application but I was sparing no detail at the time. Since at least one year of the Champion Team used these very brakes I thought they'd be appropriate. They work very well!

The Golden Boy 08-07-14 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 17014629)
Sigh. Something else I didn't know that I needed until I realized that I didn't have it. If I may ask, at what online store might one purchase these unneeded but required brake shoes?


"unneeded but required"

Yeah, me too.

Yokozuna Premium Cables, Housing and Brake Pads



Then you start thinking how awesome they'd be on your #1 bike, and then, #2 bike...

I got the set of threaded shoes to replace the rock hard Superbe pads on my 1978 Trek 730. They look so outrageously cool.

However, a while ago I got a full set of the black shoes off the eBay- right around the same price as the Yokozuna pads. I don't know if they're actually old stock Mathauser/Scott pads or if the seller just represented Yokozunas as NOS. I haven't mounted them yet because I have so much else yet to do with the braking system...


I'd like to have the black sanded off, replace the shoes on my NOS XC Pro brakes and put them on my Trek 720.

Of course, if I do that, I have to replace the Shimano cable hanger with the identical DiaComp one and of course the levers have to be replaced with either Superbe or Gran Compe levers... You can't just change one thing. *sigh*

:D

The Golden Boy 08-07-14 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmuller (Post 17014866)
The Motobecane. Those Weinmann Carrera brakes and the pads were purchased for a bike I built up for my sweetie some time ago. They were way overkill for that application but I was sparing no detail at the time. Since at least one year of the Champion Team used these very brakes I thought they'd be appropriate. They work very well!

I think they look smashing on there- they compliment that brakeset and what you see of the frame.

dddd 08-07-14 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy (Post 17014288)
Hey D-

That looks awesome- what's with those shifters? They look really cool.

Those old "Beer Tap" levers are Shimano, off of an early-1970's Azuki with stem shifters, and used here with the old Shimano "3.3.3." downtube clamp.

The lever-stop plates are angled differently (thus angle the levers differently) between downtube-clamp and stem-clamp shifters, so these parts need to stay in the appropriate clamping location.

[IMG]https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8167/...0f3e2545_z.jpgDT Shifters all 004 by dddd2002, on Flickr[/IMG]

noglider 08-07-14 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dddd (Post 17009933)
The only bad thing about these pads, other than the bonding and pad-replacement issues, is that these (because they are good, urethane) pads don't really work right on steel rims. There will be melting and squeeling, and the braking modulation will therefore be abrupt and unpredictable.
I later put my nicest pair of steel wheels on this bike, and then had to change the pads back to the old originals:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8151/...1762a6_z_d.jpg

I read on the interwebs -- therefore, it must be true -- that Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. Maybe it's not true. Here are some Kool Stop pads on my 1962 Rudge Sports. The Rudge has the original steel rims on it. These brakes stop like a demon in dry weather. They are some of the best brakes I have on any of my too-many bikes. Absolutely outstanding. Of course, wet-weather performance is poor, but I haven't even tried to address that, with the rims being chromed steel.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...0/IMG_0304.JPG

dddd 08-07-14 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17015559)
I read on the interwebs -- therefore, it must be true -- that Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. Maybe it's not true. Here are some Kool Stop pads on my 1962 Rudge Sports. The Rudge has the original steel rims on it. These brakes stop like a demon in dry weather. They are some of the best brakes I have on any of my too-many bikes. Absolutely outstanding. Of course, wet-weather performance is poor, but I haven't even tried to address that, with the rims being chromed steel.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...0/IMG_0304.JPG


That's a great data-point, noglider.

What I know about those pads is they were often referred to as a "BMX" version, and that the rubber was harder, though still grippy. Perhaps these underwent testing and development using both alloy and steel rims?

I wonder if your Rudge still has actual chrome where the pads rub, or if it's nickel or dwn to raw steel? Would probably affect the friction equation quite a bit I'd think.
Do you get to test the brakes on significant descents where you are?

Those heavy old bikes are great riders!

noglider 08-07-14 01:50 PM

I rode the Rudge in Maplewood, where I lived until August 2013. Maplewood is very hilly, and I took it down some serious hills. One right near where I lived was where I hit 38 mph and higher, several times. I don't know if I ever clocked my max speed on the Rudge there, but it's a safe bet that I exceeded 30 mph. The brakes were strong and controlled. So yes, they pass with flying colors.

The Rudge now lives in Florida with my mother in law. It stays there and waits for me to visit every April. It's a perfect Florida bike, as 3-speeds are more than enough on such flat land. I need the speeds to handle wind, not hills. 1st is for a headwind, 2nd is for a mild wind, and 3rd is for a tail wind.

crank_addict 08-07-14 02:16 PM

Where can one get the dope? (I mean brake pad to ally shoe bonding agent) Another crazy thought..... make some custom pads for steel rim use.

Cut up heat sink parts from an old PC, thread or mount post added and then use sections cut from automotive brake pads. Any crash test dummies out there? :rolleyes:

Also, wasn't there a BMX version but round? Skyway?

RobE30 08-07-14 04:41 PM

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...psjzyofsmx.jpg

crank_addict 08-07-14 09:49 PM

screech... back up here... Jim, you mean the Weinmann Carrera had those arched pads (1 yr. Champ. Team)? That's some cool detail to note. I'm playing around with a faux tribute BIC build that has the Motobecane logo brakes (Weinmann). Guess I'll have another reason to get the knockoff's from Merry. thnx

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmuller (Post 17014866)
The Motobecane. Those Weinmann Carrera brakes and the pads were purchased for a bike I built up for my sweetie some time ago. They were way overkill for that application but I was sparing no detail at the time. Since at least one year of the Champion Team used these very brakes I thought they'd be appropriate. They work very well!


jimmuller 08-08-14 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy (Post 17015010)
I think they look smashing on there- they compliment that brakeset and what you see of the frame.

Thanks!
http://world.std.com/~muller/pics/MotoInBedford2.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by crank_addict (Post 17016841)
screech... back up here... Jim, you mean the Weinmann Carrera had those arched pads (1 yr. Champ. Team)?

No, not the pads, just Weinmann Carerra brakes. I'll have to dig around online to find which year though. Found it. Not quite as I remember, but close. The Champioin Team had Weinmann Super Carerra 400 in '82, '83, '84.

I checked mine, they are curved.

onespeedbiker 08-09-14 12:46 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17015559)
I read on the interwebs -- therefore, it must be true -- that Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. Maybe it's not true. Here are some Kool Stop pads on my 1962 Rudge Sports. The Rudge has the original steel rims on it. These brakes stop like a demon in dry weather. They are some of the best brakes I have on any of my too-many bikes. Absolutely outstanding. Of course, wet-weather performance is poor, but I haven't even tried to address that, with the rims being chromed steel.

I first tried some Kool Stop salmon pads (with integral threaded stud) with my Campy GS brakes and they performed well. I then tried the plain carrier Scott-Matthausers from Yokozuna (a more period look) and was displeased; they seemed to have no grip on aluminum rim sidewalls. I finally mounted a set of Kool Stop Salmon pads in some GS holders and they again worked great. Because of this I question whether Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. The web info is Kool Stop made the Scott-Matthausers pads and later made them under their name.http://www.bikepro.com/products/brak..._math_pad.html. BikePro says the Scott-Matthausers pads have an A/91 (Shore A Durometer) hardness, where I have seen posted the Kool Stop salmon was measured at an 85 Shore hardness and the black is slightly harder with an 86 reading. Assuming this is correct, it would explain the differences I felt between the two brake pads.

Regardless I'm sticking with Kool Stop (BTW I also tried the black Kool Stop pads and could feel no difference with the salmon, but they did work better than the OEM black pads).

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=398246

The Golden Boy 08-09-14 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onespeedbiker (Post 17020131)
I first tried some Kool Stop salmon pads (with integral threaded stud) with my Campy GS brakes and they performed well. I then tried the plain carrier Scott-Matthausers from Yokozuna (a more period look) and was displeased; they seemed to have no grip on aluminum rim sidewalls. I finally mounted a set of Kool Stop Salmon pads in some GS holders and they again worked great. Becasue of this I question whether Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. The web info is Kool Stop made the Scott-Matthausers pads and later made them under their name.BikePro.com / Buyer's Guide / Mathauser Bicycle Brake Pads - Bicycle Parts at discount prices / the Buyer's Guide / Bicycle Parts at their finest! / Professional Bicycle Source / Bike Pro. BikePro says the Scott-Matthausers pads have an A/91 (Shore A Durometer)) hardness, where I have seen posted the Kool Stop salmon was measured at an 85 Shore hardness and the black is slightly harder with an 86 reading. Assuming this is correct, it would explain the differences I felt between the two brake pads.

Regardless I'm sticking with Kool Stop (BTW I also tried the black Kool Stop pads and could feel no difference with the salmon, but they did work better than the OEM black pads).

Now that doesn't bode well...

The Golden Boy 08-09-14 08:32 AM

Sorry for taking so long to get these uploaded- a lot of stuff has been sort of going on.

I find it interesting that a lot of these bikes that people are posting happen to be dark blue. As is mine...


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9fc3a63c.jpg


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4416e73b.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7e4a0cd6.jpg

RobE30 08-09-14 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy (Post 17020533)
Sorry for taking so long to get these uploaded- a lot of stuff has been sort of going on.

I find it interesting that a lot of these bikes that people are posting happen to be dark blue. As is mine...


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9fc3a63c.jpg


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4416e73b.jpg

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7e4a0cd6.jpg

So, what year is your Trek? The pic I posted is of my 81 Trek 710. I love that bike!

ascherer 08-09-14 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 17015559)
I read on the interwebs -- therefore, it must be true -- that Kool Stop salmon-colored brake pads use the same formula/patent/material as the old Matthausers. Maybe it's not true. Here are some Kool Stop pads on my 1962 Rudge Sports. The Rudge has the original steel rims on it. These brakes stop like a demon in dry weather. They are some of the best brakes I have on any of my too-many bikes. Absolutely outstanding. Of course, wet-weather performance is poor, but I haven't even tried to address that, with the rims being chromed steel.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...0/IMG_0304.JPG

Tom, I put those on my Sports and they shriek like...well, I don't know what. I've been messing around with toeing them in to no avail. Any tips?

onespeedbiker 08-09-14 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ascherer (Post 17021888)
Tom, I put those on my Sports and they shriek like...well, I don't know what. I've been messing around with toeing them in to no avail. Any tips?

I have never had much luck bending brake arms for toeing in either. What I have done is take a thin brass washer and cut it in half, then place the half washer around the front of the stud between the back of the pad and the brake arm; this causes a defacto toe in without having to bend the brake arms into submission.

Velocivixen 08-10-14 12:19 AM

@ascherer- They screeched on my Nishiki so loud that dogs a block away began barking. I did my best to toe but without all the curved washers had a hard time, so sanded a "toe in" into the pads with still no luck. My bike had aluminum rims and Dia Compe side pull brakes. The front was better than the back but they were both shrieking loudly. However I found that they stop me much better than the current Cane Creek "Grey Matter" pads I have.

jyl 08-10-14 12:31 AM

A surprising amount of toe-in can be needed with some more flexy brakes. As much as two quarters' thickness.

The Golden Boy 08-10-14 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobE30 (Post 17021855)
So, what year is your Trek? The pic I posted is of my 81 Trek 710. I love that bike!


Hi Rob!

This one is a 78 730. It was brazed in Nov or Dec (I forgot) so it was built as a 1979 736 with a Shimano Arabesque 600 group.

I've replaced most of the 600 bits with Suntour Cyclone and Superbe and a Stronglight triple crank. This is a really stable bike, despite it being Trek's 1978 "racing" geometry. They basically just shortened the chainstays, but left all the other angles the same as their touring bikes.

I'll have to check out your 710!

ascherer 08-10-14 07:00 PM

@onespeedbiker, @Velocivixen: I haven't resorted to bending calipers yet, but since they are steel I'm not worried about their integrity. I've done something like @onespeedbiker using washers but not in such an elegant way; I may try cutting some in that manner. I suspect some of the issue is that the calipers themselves are loose enough to be making it worse. I've tightened them but during the winter I will tear them down and see if that helps. Maybe I'll switch front and rear, if that's practical.

The Golden Boy 09-17-14 09:32 AM

Yesterday was totally beautiful, so I got the non-threaded Superbrake shoes installed on my 1985 Trek 720.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6cae0d1d.jpg


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3aabb9c0.jpg


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2b76ce01.jpg


http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9d9655b6.jpg

Dave Mayer 09-17-14 10:27 AM

I use 3 versions of these pads/holders on my various bikes. Good in the dry. Excellent in the wet; these are my favorites for winter riding. Unlike most other pads on the market, they retain a high percentage of wet weather stopping power, and they do not dissolve into black sludge that covers your rims.

My favorites are the Superbrakes with the replaceable inserts. Be careful about buying used holders, as I have caught a few at our local Co-op with serious cracks.

JohnDThompson 09-17-14 01:54 PM

On my Trek 720:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/MAFAC-27.jpg

On my wife's TS Isaac:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/isaac-mathauser.jpg


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