IKB5

Hi,

I've just inherited this old CB, which belonged to my grandfather. My mum tells me he used to ride it everywhere and in a fair few races. However, she also tells me he used to touch up the paint himself, which is why it looks a bit rough.

I'm pretty new to this and am keen to restore and use it if possible but would like to know what I'm dealing with first. I'm looking to date it and work out the exact model if possible.

Things that might help with this:

- The Sturmey Archer hub.
- The apparent lack of lugs.
- The Olympic badge on the front.
- Osgear dropouts (possibly)

Things that won't help with this:

- The rubbish seat that my dad put on it.
- The rubbish dynamo that my dad put on it.

Any advice anyone has would be greatly appreciated.


Pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bry-z/...7646369964005/

obrentharris 

I'm afraid I can't provide you with any information, only encouragement. Definitely a worthwhile endeavor and a great old bike! Someone will chime in here who knows something bout these bikes.
Brent

Salubrious

Is that a 4-speed SA hub? If I recall right, the serial is under the BB? And that looks like a Reynolds decal... typical super tiny seat stays. Definitely a fine machine...

repechage

what size tires on this machine currently?

IKB5

Thanks for the replies. Currently at work so will need to check on the hub and tyres when I get back tonight. It's definitely a faded Reynolds decal though. Apparently, according to another forum, the Burlite side-pull brakes are pretty rare as well and probably date it to around 1948-53. Need to find the serial number under all the dirt and paint.

Big Block

you should spend some time at Classic Lightweights
the page on Claud Butlers
and the Readers Bikes has 16 Claud Butlers

and more information here

The SA hub will have a year so would give an approximation.
Do the brake levers have any engravings?

Philip

IKB5

Thanks Philip, some really good information in those pages. Some of the examples on Readers Bikes seem pretty close but I can't see one that ticks all the boxes. I'll check the brake levers later as well.

IKB5

Right, I've added a few more pictures to the Flickr album but they're not terribly helpful if I'm honest. One shows the hub cleaned up slightly and the engraving on it. Couldn't see a year on it though. The lever says it's a 3 or 4 speed.

There aren't any engravings on the brake levers. In fact, they're a bit scratched on the front.

The bottom bracket is painted over so I can't get the serial number yet. I'll have to strip it all down to get that.

As for the tyres, they're Michelin 126 x 1 1/4 32-597. Never been entirely sure what tyre sizes actually mean - 26 inches?

Salubrious

This is all saying to me late 40s early 50s. The hub *looks* like a 4-speed with the hardware it has on the left side of the bike. Its either that or the SW hub (in which case it should be swapped out). I think you are right on the tire size- 26" x 1 1/4".

Big Block

The SA trigger shifter model GC2 is from 1950-53. see reference

Have you had a look at the CB Refinements page from the CB catalogues?
The 1949 catalogue has the various head tube configurations, including the '"low-temperature-process" welded head', the Continental rear ends, the fork crowns and seat clusters.
By process of elimination, you can see which models they were used on.
Do this over the years 1948-54 to see what variations occurred.
Wheel sizes also appear to vary between models, so look for that.
ready to make a spreadsheet? Might be the easiest way to keep track of your research.

The National Cycle Museum has the 1951 CB catalogue which you can download for a modest fee.

and if you want to get an authoritative opinion join the VCC, and you then have access to the Marque Enthusiast (as well as full access to the digital library) to identify the bike.
Hilary Stone has some advice on the frame numbering
and more on frame numbering, with a note of cautions for the "specials"

I look forward to seeing the results of your investigations.
Philip

IKB5

That's really helpful Philip, thank you very much. Very happy to cross-reference by way of spreadsheet - I spend most of my working day looking at spreadsheets anyway.

I've considered the VCC option and may well go for it if I can't get to the bottom of it via the brochures and these forums.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers.

rhm

On the classic lightweights site you can also find a page about dating Williams chain sets. If that's what you have, there should be a date code on each crank arm and on the chain ring.

Velognome 

Nice, you should be able to date some of the components: hub, chainring, trigger. If they are consistent do some comparison research on the CB links Big Block mentions and you'll be golden.

Looks like a nice project!

IKB5

Thanks for the tips. Started stripping it down tonight do we'll see what gets revealed.

IKB5

Ok, have removed the paint under the bottom bracket and it's revealed a couple of numbers. I've added a couple more pictures to the flickr album to show it but one's 862273 (which I think dates it to 1948) and the other looks like 637.

Still not sure of the actual model but looks like it could be an International Club.

Big Block

like this?

source

IKB5

That might well be it, although the pump's in a different position in the image there. Not sure if that would necessarily be in a fixed position though.

My mum also told me that my grandfather had a pretty horrific accident on his bike (fractured skull) and that necessitated at least getting some new forks. It might therefore have components from a few different years.

Big Block

It seems there were few models offered by CB in 1948, understandable as the economy was still adjusting to peacetime. The source I linked to in #16 has the model range.
The 1950 photo of the 1948 International Club on the Classic Lightweights Readers Bikes does not appear to have any pump pegs
This 1950 (based on date code) had the pump pegs on the down tube.
Decals from the 1948 catalogue as to the appropriate model can be checked at H Lloyds
can we have some close up photos of the components: front shot of the brake levers, drive side photo of the bike, drive side crank arm, side on shot of the chainring etc?

IKB5

Thanks Big Block, it's still a little bit of a mystery.

I'll take some more pictures tonight. The brake levers are now off the bike. I can say that they do appear to be plain and rather worn, without any engravings on them. I'll have another check though.

I'll get some shots of the crank and chainring as well.

Cheers

IKB5

Added a couple more photos - chainring & crank and the rear dropouts.

Looks like it was probably some kind of red before it was covered in blue hammerite.

Big Block

the photos will help in trying to identify the fittings used.
a good source as to what was available was the 1949 Aids to Happy Cycling, the first issue after World War 2.
Many of the fittings were still available in 1952 with the first post-war edition of the Brown Bros. catalogue
There are many helpful notes on the Classic Lightweights Classic Components pages

if you are going to restore it, you might be interested in reading through other projects from the same period
1947 Hobbs of Barbican
1949 Paris Tour de France
H. R. Morris
1950 Jim Guard of Southampton

plenty of good tips and sources listed.

IKB5

Wow, so much information to digest. Lots of beautiful restorations as well. Thanks again for the help Big Block.

Big Block

Where are you located? It will help with suggestions if you want to get the frame checked and repainted.
Dawes-Man seems to have a good knowledge of skilled painters if you are in the UK.

IKB5

Yes, UK based - in Norwich. I'll try to get in touch with Dawes-Man and see if he has any recommendations.

Dawes-man

Hi, Big Block sent me a link to your thread.

I don't know anything about CBs I'm afraid but what I can see from your photos it looks like the SA barrel is alloy (due to the absence of any signs of rust), which is a good sign, if it's original to the bike.

If you want to get it painted, I recommend Argos Racing Cycles in Bristol. This is the email address I use: gneedham@argoscycles.com There are other frame painters in the UK which I believe are also very good but I've never used them. I've had 5 frames done by Argos and am very happy with their work. For a deposit against the job they will arrange pick up from Norwich and delivery back to you when it's ready.

You need to be specific about what you want doing - there's a bit of rust pitting on your frame, on the chain stay bridge in particular from the mudguard clip, so I would ask them to 'smooth' the finish. They might tell you that they can't be sure how bad the rust is until they bead blast (or do they shot blast - I don't recall) the frame. They can even replace tubes with the right tubing if it came to that. It would also be worth asking them to check the tracking. They will also check the transfers on the frame and offer to get you the right repros, which I think they mostly get from Lloyds. They will even repaint the head badge.

Big Block has sent you links to my Paris and Morris frames - you can see their standard of work there and read about what Argos did.

It seems to me that you have a great project there, particularly nice for you with the family connection. Good luck!