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  1. #1
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    Replace Campagnolo RD front arm aka face plate?

    What's the best way to replace a Campagnolo RD parallelogram front arm?


    Drill out the pins (called spindles in Campagnolo catalog) and make new ones from an aluminium rod? And hammer them down like rivets?
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  2. #2
    Senior Member SJX426's Avatar
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    Can't wait to read the responses to this one!
    I wouldn't use AL but steel instead. Finding one with the right ID might be problematic. Having the right die for riviting might be a challenge too.

  3. #3
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    The BEST way is NOT to try it! Heh..

    Well, I've tried it. Easier said than done. I even have some of the original Campagnolo replacement pins. I even made some custom tools to try to do the job. I even nearly pulled every hair out of my head trying to accomplish this task.

    Here's a quick synopsis of what I found, FWIW. In no particular order, just random thoughts.

    First derailleur I worked on, the pins drove right out with a pin punch with the unit laid on my gunsmithing bench block. YES!
    Am I allowed to say gunsmithing? Roll eyes here.

    The next few derailleurs on which I tried to remove the pins caused me to pull big hanks of hair out. None of them would budge. So, I tried drilling them out. Perhaps I was impatient but, all I can say is good luck and take your time. It can be done, I'm sure. But there are still nasty stains on the walls of my shop from all the blue language that issued forth from my foul mouth while trying to accomplish this.

    If you do get the pins out, then you are faced with the decision on whether or not to replace the bronze bushings that are pressed in to the plates, your new one needs them…and just how to get them out! As they are usually worn from so many cycles of back and forth, they do require replacing as this wear is what I think causes the pins to be so hard to remove on some examples. I have some of these too. NOS. But, as far as I can tell, you need a properly sized anvil and punch, or, a hydraulic press. I have all this stuff. Or can make it. But I still pretty much gave up.

    The original pins are not aluminum. Thought of that too. But some kind of softer alloy, like Zinc/Aluminum, or something. Standard aluminum rod will not peen over easily, will work harden if you hit it too many times, and could crack or mushroom unevenly. Steel would be even harder to peen. They did use steel in later-production derailleurs, and, yes, I have a couple of those too. But you need to either have, or make, the proper tools with which to peen them. Campagnolo, I'm sure, used hydraulic or pneumatic presses.

    OK. That's enough for now. Not to discourage you. I sincerely hope you succeed. I didn't and set the project aside, indefinitely, as it was causing me too much heartburn, high blood pressure, the heartbreak of psoriasis and warts on my carbuncles.

    I'm sure it is easy for some folks. I'd like to meet them.

    And shake their hand.

    Good luck
    Last edited by rootboy; 08-13-14 at 09:27 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info @rootboy

    What length are those original pins?
    mm please

    Interesting that the pin material is softer than standard aluminium. That could be one part of the explanation why they usually look very even.
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  5. #5
    Senior Member SJX426's Avatar
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    @rootboy - can you provide pics of the pins? I assume they need to be malleable for the proper deformation. When I looked at that assembly, trying to decide if I should embark on that journey, I had visions of your experience and decided that finding a better RD was less emotional effort and cost. Didn't know about the bushings!

  6. #6
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    My first idea was to use a rivet punch set (or try to make one that fits perfect) to secure the pins.
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  7. #7
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    OK. FWIW, here's what I have. I may try this again some day but, I think I'd rather swim in these white shark waters off of Chatham wearing a Sammy the Seal costume.

    I know there are guys that have done this. Maybe some even post over on the CR list. I do hope you can pull it off, 1987. I really do.
    If so, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

    My collection of spares


    Rear derailleur bushings


    Rear derailleur pins: alloy of some sort


    Steel rear derailleur pins. Note the knurling on one end of the pins I removed. You can't see it in the pic but the other end has a concave dimple in it. Presumably to take the conical tool head on the press. Not really sure if the new ones on the right are exactly for rear derailleurs but they have conical depressions in each end, seem a bit longer, and I found them in an old Campagnolo parts box that I used to raid down at a local bike shop, before they stopped me. In fact, all of these came from there as I remember. back in the 80's.


    Front derailleur pins and bushings. I haven't tried to do a front as of yet.


    On size, SJX, I think diameter is more important than length as one can always cut to length. But finding the proper diameter pin stock in the right material is a challenge. Not sure what these pins are made of but it is very light material. Maybe lighter than aluminum.
    Length is 30.8 mm . Diameter on the one I measured is 3.48 mm. I only measured one of them. The pins are a nice slide fit in the bushings, as you might imagine.

  8. #8
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    And here is a punch I made to try to set these pins with…when I was still rather naive about the whole process.
    Concave end.

  9. #9
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    Thanks again @rootboy, excellent info

    I took notes of your pin dimensions:
    Length 30.8 mm
    Diameter 3.48 mm

    Interesting that one side was knurled. Maybe for easier assembly.
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  10. #10
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Right. But only on those steel ones. Which were a later thing. Early to mid 80's? And, the knurled pins have a very slight depression in the knurled end, presumable to center it on a dimple on the anvil. And a very deep conical depression on the other end. But the two new ones have deep depressions on both ends, and no knurling. My one example of an 80's Nuovo record derailleur shows the deep depressions on both ends.

  11. #11
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I remember some of the steel pins in an early-90's Record derailer had the knurling, for retention I think, since only one or two of the four pins were threaded.

    It was a pain to fixture the derailer for getting the pins out, then there were shim washers and sealing material iir.

    I wouldn't have bothered, but the one derailer had a crack straight across the top of the B-knucle pivot, and I had a donor with a twisted cage and para plates.

    I don't recall having to peen any of the pins, just pressed them back in, and one or two were threaded with wrench sockets.

  12. #12
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    I just measured the domed "riveted" ends of the pins on a 71 Campagnolo NR RD. They where 4.0 - 4.2 mm wide at the widest point at the base. So I assume a 4mm concave punch will be suitable. And they where much flatter on the rear side so I guess that the rear side was resting on some anvil when the pins where deformed.
    Last edited by 1987; 08-13-14 at 02:10 PM.
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  13. #13
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    That should do nicely I would think. I think they must've had a fixture that would do both sides concave but I've seen the flatter spot on one side too. Maybe they hit them once, flipped them over and hit them again in the big punch/press. Who knows?

    Whatever they did, if wasn't as rinky-dink as my frivolous but sincere and naive attempts with my little tools. Here's the set I made. Figured I could cradle the parallelogram in my paw and hold it on this anvil. Then, I even bought a block of Delrin thinking I would custom inlet a fixture to hold the unit. As dddd says, that is the bulk of the challenge. Holding the damned thing. I got to this stage and went… "WTF am I doing?"

    Kind of fun but a man's got to know his limitations, as Harry said, and I figured I had better tinkering projects to indulge in.


  14. #14
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    Looks like you're handy with the precision lathe!

    These pieces belong in The Campagnolo Museum!

  15. #15
    Senior Member 1987's Avatar
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    @rootboy if you have the skills and equipment to make those tools, then you should be able to figure out how to assemble the RD

    Btw what's the inner diameter of the pin bushings?
    I am looking for an early 70s Fiamme Red label wheelset on Camp Record LF.
    Fiamme research institute: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/781480

  16. #16
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I'm a very amateur machinist. I can do simple stuff. But, for instance, I have no idea how I'd measure the inside diameter of those bushings!
    Don't have the proper tool, I guess. The pins are a loose slide fit in them so my guess would be about 3.6 mm , or so. Let me see if I have a piece of rod stock that fits inside them, with which to measure.

    I think I could figure out how to assemble them, 1987, thanks. It was getting them apart that flummoxed me! And making the fixtures with which to hold these danged things while doing so.

  17. #17
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    For stability and speed I bet Campagnolo "set" at least two pins at once.

    To measure the bushings, I would start with a replacement part and machine a rod slowly to fit or stair step a few with two or three OD's. Much easier to measure an OD at this diameter and use that as a gauge.

    I have two "junk" Nuovo Record rear mechanisms that I will delve into, I have missed auctions on the pins and bushings so as these units are junk at this point I might even go the "Mavic" route and use pins and cir-clips or roll pins... roll pins probably are not a good idea. Maybe even tap one side of the body and machine a pin with a threaded end and screw them into position, similar to how the parallelogram spring on the earlier units is retained.

    Decades ago, I always smiled a bit as Campagnolo sold these spare parts but not a procedure...

  18. #18
    Senior Member SJX426's Avatar
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    So what is early and what is not? I have two that were in a grab bag of parts with one from 74 and the other from 72. Don't know which is which at the moment and they are buried as we just moved.
    The casting for the upper DO mounting is significantly different with one having more material around the pin hole. Sorry for the dirt, still need to clean them up. Need mounting pivot bolts too.

    I did notice the broken spring housing.


  19. #19
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post

    Decades ago, I always smiled a bit as Campagnolo sold these spare parts but not a procedure...
    Agreed. It is admirable Campy offered all the parts with which to rebuild their components, even though most users could never accomplish the task of actually doing it.

    I thought I may have a piece of tubing in my graduated, telescoping set, to fit the bushings, but didn't. Closest I could come with the little jaws on my digital caliper, 1987, was 3.58 mm ID. Which kind of makes sense. Pins are a loose fit as they needed free swing when in place, with no possibility of binding. Outside diameter of the bushings is exactly 5 mm, FWIW.

  20. #20
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    I would consider those both "early", SJX. Here are a couple pics of my Pat. 11 (86?) rear. Not sure when they changed to the steel pins. Note that little mark/logo on the top pivot body, too. Wonder what that means?




  21. #21
    Large Member urodacus's Avatar
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    SL? superleggera?
    05 Giant TCR Composite; 83 Colnago Saronni: 81 San Rensho Katana Super Export track bike, #A116-56; 89 Zunow Pentaglia: SOLD; 85 Tommasini: SOLD; 83 Guerciotti: SOLD

  22. #22
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Could be. As they did change the position of the return spring in later iterations. Dunno.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
    I would consider those both "early", SJX. Here are a couple pics of my Pat. 11 (86?) rear. Not sure when they changed to the steel pins. Note that little mark/logo on the top pivot body, too. Wonder what that means?



    I consider this the later design. The earlier version has the spring coiling around a separate bolt set between and a bit under the upper pivots.
    Just saw the context, interesting the subtle differences that Campagnolo did along the way as SJX shows, I am pretty sure the smaller top casting is the earlier one.
    Last edited by repechage; 08-14-14 at 10:51 AM.

  24. #24
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    I consider this the later design.
    Yes.

  25. #25
    Ed.
    Ed. is offline
    Senior Member Ed.'s Avatar
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    Might some time in a moderate oven help? I've done that to remove and install bearings in motorcycle engine and gearbox cases...

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