Kactus

Beautiful P-13 Bob! And my size too; if it ever expresses a desire to visit the west coast...

jonwvara 

Bob, you and I are probably the only people on the planet who are riding triplized Campy cranks with a custom freewheel topping out at 38 teeth. I think I've posted this photo here before; it's a Univega Viva Sport with a 14-17-21-26-32-38 rear and a half-step 46-42-32 front. It's set up with Suntour AG derailleurs, both front and rear--they were actually designed by Suntour to go with that monster 38-tooth cog.


Since I think our fitness levels are probably somewhat comparable, I thought that my previous experience with low gearing and steep grades might be somewhat useful and/or relevant. Here are three gearing setups I've tried.

1. I rode up Mt. Ascutney in Vermont five or six years ago--2,500 vertical feet in about 4 miles, reportedly with a number of sustained stretches in excess of 19%. I had a 22 front and a 30 rear (this was on a Cannondale touring bike that came with a compact triple), for a low of about 17.5 with my wheels and tires. Worked well--I was able to maintain a reasonable cadence throughout, maybe dropping to 60 or so at times.

2. Hurricane Mountain Road on the Maine/NH state line last November, 1,200 vertical in about two miles. I rode this with a 30/34 setup, which was the lowest I had on any bike at that time. It worked, but I was a little overgeared at 23.6 gear inches and ended up mashing pretty hard. In places my cadence dropped to 40 or less, I think. (I believe that's the speed at which a Great Blue Heron beats its wings when in flight, for what that's worth.) There's a blog posting about this ride on the Red Clover Components web site--a memorable post for me because it's the first (and so far only) of my blog posts to draw a comment from a reader. True, the comment did come from one of the other guys on the ride, but what does that have to do with anything?

3. Although I still haven't used the 32/38 combo on my Univega on any sustained climbs, it feels pretty good on the dirt road up to my house, which includes a couple of shortish stretches of what must be 10% grade or so. That setup probably gives a low of about 24 inches with the chunky 27 x1 1/4 Paselas I'm using. Your ratio probably about the same. I think it will work out well for you.

When the subject of very low gears comes up, someone always mentions that below a certain point--20 gear inches, say--you can probably walk up the hill as fast as you can ride. That may or may not be true. On the Hurricane Mountain ride, I got to the top about ten or fifteen minutes before a number of other people who walked the whole thing because they weren't geared low enough to ride it. I'm not exactly a powerhouse climber, either.

But it also seems to me that it's irrelevant to compare riding to walking speed, because the point is to ride a bike, yes? If we liked to take walks rather than ride we could just leave our bikes at home and save a lot of inconvenience. Also, though I don't have any data to back this up it seems very clear to me that riding up a 19% grade at 3 MPH uses substantially less energy that walking up a 19% grade at 3 MPH while pushing a bike. I prefer to take the easy way. Also, it's useful to have a bike for the descent after the climb.

For the last year or so I've been toying with the idea of doing a (clandestine and unlawful) nocturnal ride up the Mt. Washington Auto Road. That's 5,000 vertical feet in 8 miles. Practically speaking, you could probably only do that during the full-moonish nights in July or August, and would obviously be weather-dependent as well. The window has almost closed for this year, and I this isn't my year, anyway, for a couple of reasons. I also haven't figured out how one would get down--one probably have to put one's bike in an inconspicuous spot at the summit and try to look like an early-morning hiker while waiting for the road to open so an accomplice could drive up in a car to provide a ride back to the bottom. If I ever do try that ride, I expect that I would swap the 32-tooth ring on the Univega for a 24, giving a ratio very close to what I used on Ascutney.

pastorbobnlnh 

Jon,

Thanks for your observations. They are very helpful. I like your Mt. Washington plan. Very rad of you!

jonwvara 

I forgot to mention it in my previous post, but I second fietsbob's observation about the difficulty of getting started again with low gearing on a steep slope. The key is to keep moving on at all costs, since if you stop you may find it impossible to get going again. That's especially true if you're using clips and straps, rather than clipless pedals. With SPD pedals and cleats you have a slightly better chance.

When it's really, really steep it can also be hard to keep your front wheel from lifting off the pavement unless you keep your weight well forward. Mountain bikers are probably used to that kind of thing, but I've never ridden a mountain bike, so it was a surprise to me the first time I encountered it.

pastorbobnlnh 

Thanks! This one is a keeper until the legs no longer can spin pedals.

pastorbobnlnh 

I will be using SPD pedals as you have probably noticed.

I didn't get a chance to test ride it on a nearby hill as planned for today. A roofing project took me into the "big" city of Concord, and the shingles weighed too much for one trip in my van, so I was back and forth twice. Hopefully tomorrow afternoon I'll be able to report back.

Heck, I might even go over to Mount Kearsarge and skip the preliminary testing and go right to the big kahuna.

vonfilm 

I am intrigued with Pasotor Bob's drivetrain. At one time I had a SunTour 14-38 5 speed freewheel with a Huret Eco Duopar RD. I had it switched out with a Shimano 14-34 Megarange because the upper pulley was rubbing against the 38 tooth big cog when it is in low. This was all done by my LBS before I started doing almost all my own work. Up front I still have a 52/42/28 Stronglight 99 triple. This is on my 73 Schwinn Super Sport. I wonder if a little fine tuning and TLC could get the big 14-38 running smoothly.

0430201173SS 074 by vonfilm, on Flickr

0430201173SS 073 by vonfilm, on Flickr

jonwvara 

The Huret mounting claws like the one in that photo are pretty short. A longer claw might give you enough clearance, but I don't know if Huret made any longer ones. All the ones that I've seen are like yours, I think. You could get a longer one in the Campagnolo/Shimano/Suntour pattern and switch to a Suntour AG rear derailleur--they turn up on ebay pretty regularlyl for not too much money.

John E

That is similar to how I geared my wife's Peugeot UO-8 (now mine, since she prefers mountain bikes now) when I built it for her in 1974. Being on our starving grad student budget, I used the parts I had lying around, and she was pretty happy with the results: TA Professional crankset, 52-42; SunTour VGT from my Nishiki; my early anticipation of megarange: 16-18-21-24-32. This gave her a nice 1.5-step on top, like the popular 52-42/14-24 road racing combination, but gave up the customary hundred-inch top gear in favor of a bailout granny for the hills of west Los Angeles. I could have used the 34T cog that came with my Nishiki, but I was a little nervous about overshifting on a second-first downshift, which proved to be a completely unfounded concern.

Michael Angelo 

Hey, PB.

Is that big cog from the Suntour Freewheel I sent you?

Sixty Fiver

I'd think that a half step plus granny would work better with those big steps off the back... my Garlatti has no trouble with hills with a half step and it's 5 speed alpine block (14-32).



Just fitted a Shimano LX compact triple to my Kuwahara touring bike... crank runs a 20/32/44 mated to a 12-32 Suntour Ultra 7 and has 17 gear inches at the bottom.

BluesDaddy

Mountain biking is definitely a good practice ground for hillclimbs because the diminished traction magnifies poor technique. The key is to imagine your center of mass (torso) and keep it between the axles. Too far back and the front wheel lifts. Pull your chest down as close to the bar as you can; you will need to be on the hoods which is the best hand position for climbing anyway. Sit as far forward as possible on the saddle.
Random Internet Photo:

zonatandem

Handlebar mounted bottles (with flexible straw) for both stoker and pilot on our c/f tandem.

John Hood

Seems like quite a jump between 18 and 26 and some extremely close gearing on the low end.

The difference between 18 and 26 teeth is a 45% gain, while the difference between 34 and 38 is only 12%.

Your choice in gears leans way more toward low speed spinning than I'd be comfortable with, but if it works for you, go for it.

pastorbobnlnh 

Take a look at the 8 mile course, you can see it is almost entirely up hill. The last 3.5 miles from the State Park entrance to the parking lot just below the summit can be between 5%-14% grade with two very brief level sections. I do plan to spin the entire way up and I wanted to find the best low gear to spin in. I'm also hopeful that the 26T-38T cogs, combined to the 50T give me adequate high gears for the beginning 4.5 miles of the race. I'll know more when I run a test ride up the mountain. Who knows, I might not need the 38T, in which case I'll re-gear this monster to a 14-18-22-26-30-34. that gives nice 4T jumps on each shift.

I built this freewheel specifically for this race, and don't plan to use it in this configuration for normal riding. Generally speaking, a 34T is the largest cog I need for my normal riding which includes lots of hills, some of which are short, and really steep buggers. FWIIW, most of my bikes are equipped with between a 28T and 32T large cog.

Mike, I think that freewheel had a 34T in the last position. When you visit northern New England, I could mount this monster for you to try your legs on.

Here's a closeup of the freewheel on the bike. I'll try to get better pictures showing the RD from the front and rear. So far no rubbing and the shifts work really well. Since this is an Ultra, the cage tends to rub the next larger cog until I do a very slight trim on the shifter.

pastorbobnlnh 

I'm back from the real world test of this 38T freewheel and I did it on Mount Kearsarge, so the actual place of the race. I'm guessing about the starting point, but I know I had to be close.

First picture is of the Log Your Ride App on my iPhone.



The elevation profile is at the bottom. Almost 2100 feet. During the first 4.5 miles from the Town of Warner to the Park entrance I only used the 31T granny on one steep 1/8 to 1/4 mile section. I did however enjoy the spinning on the 42T and 50T chainrings and the 26-38T cogs. That part actually worked out pretty well. But I didn't set any speed records. It took about 25 minutes to cover this distance which gains about 600 feet.

The last 3.5 miles to the summit parking lot was brutal 90% of the time with two short flats and descents for the other 10%. I only stopped once to take this picture.



If you look closely in the left hand corner at the horizon, I believe that is Mount Washington, the granddaddy of New England Mountains. This picture is looking towards the northeast.

Since I was on a mission to reach the summit of the the road, I didn't tarry long and was back in the saddle and clipped into my SPDs. The final 3.5 miles took 40+ minutes. One mile was a grueling 16 minutes, so needless to say, I was not spinning but mashing at this point.

I made to the top and took the obligatory bike photo (I need tips on how to better fit my pump).



And a selfie looking towards the south.



BTW, I was fortunate, I arrived after the Park had closed, I hopped the gate, and had the road all to my lonesome self.

Final observations: I need to work on my spinning. I do fine on slopes of about 5% or less, but I mash more and more the more steep the grade.

jimmuller 

Bob,
Excellent! BTW, from your picture it looks like you've been losing weight. You have mentioned last spring that it was goal. Good job! Even better job to climb up Mt. Keasarge. And you bike didn't asplode!

ofgit

Bravo! Sure is pretty scenery up there.

So, how slow can you go in low granny?

pastorbobnlnh 

Jim, Thanks! I'm down about 80lbs and need to drop another 25 to hit my goal of 200. No, the bike held up nicely! When I stopped to hop the gate out of the park on the way back to the car, I was surprised by how hot my rims were, especially the rear one!
Thanks! It was a beautiful day that really deserved more "stop and smell the roses moments." But I was on a mission and couldn't tarry this time to do so. I did take one more pic from the place I stopped, looking more southeast.



On a really clear day you can see Boston from the top of the mountain in this direction.

On the steepest grades I was going about 3-4mph in the 31-38 combo. I had no problems staying upright, and I don't believe I can walk up a mountain this fast.

BluesDaddy

Excellent ride report! Since you did your own recon, you may not need this , but I found it interesting: Northeastcycling.com - Hillclimb Races

pastorbobnlnh 

Thanks @BluesDaddy! I'm going to borrow the elevation profile for Mt. Kearsarge from this site and post here.



In the text it mentions how steep the first section inside the Park gate is and to watch for over heating rims on the descent. I stopped at the mid point of this section and was amazed by how hot my rims were, especially the rear one.

pastorbobnlnh 

Over the past couple of weeks I've been tweaking the gearing on my super mega range Suntour ProComp freewheel.

My first tweak was that I discovered the middle cog on a Suntour New Winner has the same threading as the two small cogs on the Perfect or ProComp body. So I changed the original 16-18-26-30-34-38 to 18-20-26-30-34-38. I liked this better but could still use more high end and the jump from 20-26 is still a bit big.

So I dug through my cogs and found a 21T New Winner middle cog, a 25T ProComp/Perfect splinned cog, and a 17T ProComp/Perfect threaded. This now gives me a more even 17-21-25-30-34-38, or 4T, 4T, 5T, 4T, 4T jumps which I find rather acceptable, even with the redundancy.


from Sheldon Brown's gear calculator

Looks better as well.



Also, the good news is I can shift through all gear combinations and don't need to worry about jamming up the RD.

Big-Big


Little-Little


Took it out for a 21 mile shakedown ride and had no issues shifting to all combinations. Hopefully I'll have a chance to take it back to the actual race route up Mount Kearsarge by the end of the week.

zukahn1 

I really like you tweaks changes while not really needed they should give you a smoother gear shift prograssion on the lower end whitch is what I think your looking for nice job.

pastorbobnlnh 

So today @BluesDaddy stopped at the church and we headed over to the beginning of the race course. He has decided to enter and wanted to see what the ride was like. I had ridden up Mount Kearsarge on Monday for the second time on the '71 P13. I took this selfie at the top.



Today I decided to to try the '83 Paramount. The gearing is not as low and is higher and I wondered if I could make better time. It has a 13-30, 7 speed freewheel and a 52-42-30 triple.

BluesDaddy was a monster and he rode up it with a 13-30, 7 speed cassette, and a 53-39 double! He was really nice and waited on me at times to join back up. He was equally daring on the return descent! He lost me fairly quickly and waited at the park entrance for so we could ride the final 5 miles into town together.

I suppose, him being about 50lbs lighter and 14 years younger means I was out-competed!

Pictures from the top today.







I'm hoping to ride up again on Friday. This time I think I'll try my light weight '93 Cannondale R600 2.8 Rocket.

BluesDaddy

Great day for a ride in NH. Sunny, 60 degrees, fresh mountain air with the scent of balsams. I've been doing some hill climbs lately so that helped. And I had a 32T cog in the back. Pastor Bob is a great riding buddy!