Facanh

I tried pretty few road bikes in my life. My own, my brother's alu Giant Cadex and his "noname" steel bike, and a pimped out Specialized Venge, so I don't have much experience.

This year I want to build a bike. Steel lugged frame, modern gruppo and wheels. My main concern is that the frame is not going to perform good enough.

I have a swiss made lugged steel frame made from Columbus Aelle tubes. My main problem is that the frame flexes too much, the bike just doesn't feel solid enough when I ride on rough roads, and that's the only kind of road that I ride on here in Hungaristan. When I hit a crack or something the whole bike feels like it's gonna fall apart. It's also very unstable at high speeds, cornering at high speeds is actually scary. I also feel like i'm losing a lot of power because the BB flexes a ton, but that's not my main problem because i'm not a racer.

My brother's aluminium Giant feels pretty solid, I can really feel a difference when I accelerate hard. But it's also shakes your eyeballs out on rough roads. His other bike has a noname steel frame, the same components as his Giant, 105 gruppo and Mavic Aksyum wheels, but it feels exactly like my bike.
Of course carbon is the best (or maybe not in this section of the forum? ), the Specialized Venge that I tried just felt awesome in every way, but I don't want a carbon frame right now, becuase I love the look of lugged steel frames, and I want my frame to live a looong life.

So my main question is, if I get a more expensive steel frame that is made from better tubing like SL or SLX, is it gonna feel much better than my current frame, or all steel frames are like this?

fietsbob

I built my own Aelle tubed frame set in 1975. its fine .. so you are using your bike as an excuse to be un happy with riding ?

slow down, nobody says you have to clinch your sphincter to enjoy cycling.


expensive steel heat treated alloys are all about being strong enough but using less material ..


maybe you want a non C&V Oversized Hydro-formed Aluminum, Stiff Frame , not a super light steel one after all..

Facanh

No, I enjoy riding my bike. But it has problems, and really old low end components. My dream was always to build a good bike from new components, I always had second hand cheap stuff, and I finally have the money to build it.

I don't want aluminium, I want a lugged steel frame.

fietsbob

thats nice.. nothing I can do for you .. taste is what it is ... happy shopping ..

verktyg 

Welcome to the Forum...

First off, the handling problems that you describe don't have much to do with the type of tubing the frame is made out of.

What size is the frame? How big are you? Does the frame fit you properly - too big or too small? What size are the tires?

All of the above issues can affect the handling and ride.

Columbus Alle tubing is made of low alloy manganese steel and the tubes are straight gage. The wall thickness of the 3 main tubes is 0.8mm. Columbus SL and SLX are made with higher alloy (thus stronger) chrome-molybdenum steel. The thickness of the 3 main tubes is 0.9mm at the butted ends and 0.6mm in the middle sections so it's lighter. Also, the forks and rear stays in SL and SLX is thinner so it will be more flexible.

Columbus SL and SLX tubing is the same except there are raised reinforcing ribs in the butted ends of the seat and down tubes in SLX to make it a little stiffer than SL tubing.

Here's a description of butted tubing. Only the top and down tubes are "double butted" in most butted tubing.



Some performance frames such as those made for criterium racing are designed to be extremely responsive for fast turning. They tend to be very twitchy and unstable.

Larger frames with heavier riders can be more flexible, especially across the bottom bracket. Your style of pedaling can also affect the flexing of your frame. If your are a "masher" - ride in high gears most of the time and stomp up hills, a frame can feel more flexible.

If the roads that you ride on have rough surfaces, larger size tires cane help a lot to smooth out the ride and improve handling. 700 x 20c tires are going to be less stable and harsher riding than 700 x 28c or 700 x 32c tires.


So no, higher grade tubing like SL or SLX wont fix your problem.

verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

The frame and wheels are the two most important factors in how a bike rides and handles. Aside from better braking and shifting, the rest of the components have more to do with comfort (seat, bars and stem).

verktyg

Chas.

Facanh

Thanks!

Frame size: 57,5cm top tube, center to center. I'm 185cm, it fits me perfect. Tires are 25mm. I'm pretty skinny.

The ride is smooth even on rough roads, that's not my problem. The bike just doesn't feel right. I really liked my brother's aluminium bike, it was stiff, the handling was nice (but also painful on rough surfaces because it's alu), but his and my steel bike are just not like that, and his steel and alu bike has exactly the same components, 105 gruppo and Mavic Aksyum so I can compare the two pretty good.

Maybe I have to try out more steel bikes.

LesterOfPuppets

I have a Scapin made from Aelle and it rides great. It's kinda twitchy but I kinda like it like that. It actually rails corners and needs absolutely no convincing to turn. My Lemond is more stable but sometimes that can be a boring kinda stable. My main complaint about the Scapin is the rear end is kinda heavy. Those stays must be pretty thick walled, or maybe it's just the olde Sachs freewheel that's so heavy.

I've only had one bike I thought was too flexible at the bottom bracket - 1988 Trek 400T. I think that may have because of the long seatstays, however. Seems like that rear triangle was the soft spot in that frame.

I have a feeling a lot of the SL frames might be too whippy for your tastes, possibly even moreso.

I had my ParkPre MTB built up as a road bike for a bit. That BB was rock solid! Stiffest steel bike I've been on. It wasn't lugged, though.

LesterOfPuppets

I have a feeling a good aluminum frame/carbon fork bike that can take 28mm tires would be your dream bike. Super stiff BB to stomp on but fat tires and plush fork can help reduce the boneshaking.

Facanh

Maybe. But I like the look of the lugged steel frames sooo much (I also don't like the look of A-head stems ), and this may sound stupid to some people but I want to build a beautiful bike with a custom paint job, so looks are important to me.

But I really think I need to try out more steel roadbikes to see if I just don't like the material, or something was wrong with every bike I tried.

upthywazzoo 

Anyone care to comment about lugged carbon stiffness? 80s and early 90s carbon bikes have a lot of vintage looks.

dddd

I don't see this concern about the frame tubing as much applying to the OP's bike's poor handling.

I suspect that the headset isn't performing well and that possible wheel/tire and alignment issues may exist.

Also, the 57.5cm top tube isn't very long for (6'1") 185cm rider, so what stem length is now in use?

How high is the saddle above the top of the bars?

Seat tube angle can majorly affect the effective forward reach of the top tube, so should be measured.

Head tube angle and fork "rake" measurement will also have a major effect on a bike's feeling of stability.

That said, a frame built with Aelle tubing should be relatively stiff, due to (as Verktyg mentioned) this tubing's relatively thick walls.

A photo of the bike, a nice side-view, will help us begin to decipher your bike's handling maladies, which I believe has nothing to do with the type of steel used in the frame.

dddd

Bicycling Magazine (or what I would call "the former Bicycling Magazine") ran stiffness checks on many production frames back in the 1980's, and the material/construction choice was shown to be irrelevant to any discussion about frame stiffness.

Case in point, consider the Centurion Carbon production frames, tested as the most flexible that were tested, compared with the Specialized Epic Road frame, which tested as one of the stiffest.

Perhaps the Epic wasn't as stiff as a Cannondale or Klein frame, but it was one of the stiffer frames they tested regardless of material, and they tested a lot of frames over a period of years.

I found my first Epic to be too eager to turn into fast corners, but that one was larger and with only a 9cm stem on it.

I later sized-down (via a trade) the frame (these frames had steep angles for quick steering), and used a longer neck/stem, and the handling became more linear and calm in those same cornering situations.

jimmuller 

What they all said. It probably isn't the tubing. It could be the wheels. Are they strung up tight enough? It could be the design and construction of the frame regardless of the tubing. Plenty of great bikes have been made from lesser tubing and plenty of bad bikes have been made from high-end tubing.

But the bottom line is that if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work. If the headset and wheels are good then you need to keep looking. Just don't avaoid lesser tubing because of the name on the label.

RobbieTunes

You belong here. Velkommen

I'm not familiar with Aelle at all. I can vouch for SL and SLX not being noodles, but not sure your size.
Some 60+ cm frames can be a might flexible, no matter what, even in carbon. (which is why Specialized re-did the Tarmac, again)
My 56cm versions had/have little flex. They are not as stiff as carbon, or even modern steel, but they don't ride as you described.
They ride like polished silk.

I don't think it's a frame issue. Try swapping in some tight wheels and see what happens.

Facanh

The front wheel is almost new, spokes are tight everything is good. The rear, well it's pretty bad. I'll try a new back wheel tomorrow. Headset is a really old Shimano Golden Arrow, but I took it apart recently and it's perfect.

So cheaper Columbus steel frames are just as good as a more expensive ones like SL or SLX, EL etc.?

Steve Whitlatch 

I had a Trek 1400 I built up with modern shifting and wheels. Beautiful bike. Aluminum. It beat the crap out of me. Stiff as hell and performance was outstanding. I had a choice. Buy Carbon Fork, Bars & seat post to put on it to control road shock, or build up my steel Schwinn Circuit with more modern components. I chose to build up my steel frame. There are options.

Edit: My Circuit is Columbus SL & SP frame. It springs over bumps but never feels as if it will fall apart. It handles very well. I am 6ft tall 195 lbs.

squirtdad

it should be noted that there are variations in aelle tubing..... it is not all single gauge there is double butted on oversize

my torpado has aelle and it stable and fun to ride and I am big guy


https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...le-tubing.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...lle-light.html

Facanh

The sticker on the frame only says "Aelle", and some other stuff.

LesterOfPuppets

I think my Aelle Scapin might be a hair stiffer than my old SL Pinarello. Tough call, though.

nesteel 

Is the frame made of Aelle, or Aelle R? My Torpado sports an Aelle R frame, and yes, with my 205 pound body on it, it feels a bit twitchy when I push it hard (okay, hard for my style). It rides just fine though, and I have no worries about excessive flex. It's just a bit more lively then my other frames (which are all pretty much garden variety).

Giacomo 1 

I find that my Aelle framed Barecci is fairly stiff and predictable getting on down the road, but it is heavier than my SL framed bikes.

I like to say that my SL framed bikes are my sprinters, my nimble handlers, the ones I would take into a race, while my Aelle gives me a nice predictable, comfortable ride for the long haul. So for me, both are fine, but for different reasons...

jimmuller 

Well, yes any no. Here is how frame material usually works. All steels have the same elastic properties, which means they are all equally stiff, all other things being equal. The more expensive steels have higher breaking strength, which means the tubing can be thinner and therefore lighter. However this also makes the frame more flexible. So to make the frame stiffer again the tubing is created with thicker walls at the ends than in the middle, hence the term "butted".

The result of all this is that in general a bike made with lesser steel tubing will be a bit heavier and also stiffer. The frame builder has options, for example how close to the end of the tube the butted section starts, perhaps his choice of tube thickness, and what kind of lugs to use. So in theory a good builder can reclaim the stiffness in ways that matter while still keeping the frame light. But that is up to the builder's skill.

In general the lesser tubing will be stiffer, not more flexible. If you need a stiffer frame, the lesser tubing might be even better. If you are looking for lightest weight, you want the more expensive tubing. A good builder can make a frame that feels almost the same using any of the tubing, but the lesser tubing will be a bit heavier.

verktyg 

Components except for wheels and tires mean nothing as far as ride and handling are concerned. It's like saying red bikes are stiffer than black bikes!

As a rule of thumb, when testing metals, aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel, 1/3 the stiffness of steel and has only 1/3 the strength (some heat treated aluminum alloys are as much as twice as strong as cheap low strength steels).

To compensate for the flexibility and lower strength (vs. high alloy steels), welded aluminum frames use larger diameter tubing with thicker walls. This results in stiffer frames that have a dead feel.

Stiffness is VERY subjective. For me lateral stiffness across the bottom bracket so that the chain doesn't rub on the front derailleur when I'm honking up a hill out of the saddle is the only area that's important.

To a lesser degree lateral stiffness of the front end across the bars and head tube is important to some people too. It can occur with a large rider on a big frame made of light gage tubing. I ran into it with a Teledyne Titan titanium frame back in the 1970s because of a design flaw.

If you like that feel and ride then stick with aluminum frames.

Unless you get something like a heavy MTB, you're not going to find that in most high performance steel frames.

verktyg

Chas.

busdriver1959

How much are you willing to spend? Modern double oversize tubes will fix the bottom bracket flex but it ain't gonna be cheap. If you are more budget minded, look for a used frame built with oversize tubes. Not as big as double oversize but will still be stiffer than standard. It sounds like the front end on the Aelle bike has too little trail. A fork change to one with less rake could give you more trail and a less squirrelly ride.