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suntour derailleurs, shimano shifters

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Old 09-11-14, 04:01 PM
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suntour derailleurs, shimano shifters

i am building up a trek 850, i think 1991, it came with suntour xce dérailleurs and a suntour triple crank. i would like to use the suntour xce front dérailleur with a shimano trigger shifter but am not sure it will index correctly. i would like to use the rear but i have heard rd does not index with shimano or sram shifters. anyone have experience with this setup?
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Old 09-11-14, 06:11 PM
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Does the front shifter index or is it just ratcheted?

If you've got the stuff, you can always just try it, see how it goes. It might work, despite everybody and their mom telling you that it shouldn't.

I use Shimano freewheels and Suntour derailleurs and shifters to devastating effect on several bikes.
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Old 09-11-14, 07:29 PM
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i suspect your right, i do have the parts, just now i have finished stripping and cleaning the frame. waiting on a headset, handlebar, 8 speed shifter, plus build a rear wheel.
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Old 09-11-14, 08:40 PM
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You have heard right that your Shimano shifters will not index an accushift rear deraillure. My guess is the front deraillure will have issues also, as Shimano front shifter also index while Accushift does not.
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Old 09-12-14, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by onespeedbiker
You have heard right that your Shimano shifters will not index an accushift rear deraillure. My guess is the front deraillure will have issues also, as Shimano front shifter also index while Accushift does not.
Do you remember what the pull ratios are supposed to be between Accushift, SIS and DuraAce?

The one thing that blew my mind was using DuraAce (7400) 6 sp shifters with an XC Comp RD and an OLD Suntour Perfect 5 speed freewheel. It worked "Perfect."
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Old 09-12-14, 08:32 AM
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There's a lot of combinations that work together decently because of the amount of slop in the hardware. There's also quite a few combinations that match up almost perfectly, or matching to specs. Short of simply trying it this is probably one of the better references to check when brainstorming. Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Frame and Cassette Spacing Crib Sheet
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Old 09-12-14, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
Do you remember what the pull ratios are supposed to be between Accushift, SIS and DuraAce?

The one thing that blew my mind was using DuraAce (7400) 6 sp shifters with an XC Comp RD and an OLD Suntour Perfect 5 speed freewheel. It worked "Perfect."
My experience showed that Suntour Accushift derailers were more similar to the pre-1997 (pre-nine-speed) Dura-Ace rear derailers in terms of "actuation ratio" or "pull ratio".

And since 5 and 6 speed freewheels are similarly spaced, I'm not surprised that your setup indexed properly.
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Old 09-13-14, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dddd
My experience showed that Suntour Accushift derailers were more similar to the pre-1997 (pre-nine-speed) Dura-Ace rear derailers in terms of "actuation ratio" or "pull ratio".

And since 5 and 6 speed freewheels are similarly spaced, I'm not surprised that your setup indexed properly.
I guess what most surprised me most is that a Perfect freewheel would index. I look at Accushift, SIS and DuraAce as all being their own animals as far as their indexing "language."
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Old 09-13-14, 08:53 AM
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Here is a snippet from "Sunset for Suntour" that explans the requirement to use all Suntour Accushift components to make it work reliably. No mixing and matching different brands.

1987 - The failure of AccuShift

SunTour realized that the market had shifted to indexed shifting. 1986 saw a crash program to develop indexed shifting for all of SunTour's gruppos. There was no time for the luxury of trickle down from Superbe to the less expensive lines. 1987 would be the catch-up year. All of the engineering and development was handled by about twenty people.

In 1987, SunTour introduced indexed shifting across the board with five road bike and four mountain bike gruppos. Eleven indexed rear derailleurs were combined with ten indexed shift levers, and nine freewheels with five, six, or seven sprockets and wide- or narrow-spacing.

The new 1987 rear derailleurs for road bikes were redesigned to include a spring-loaded top pivot. This was similar to Shimano's SIS design. SunTour called it Twin Tension. The mountain bike rear derailleurs did not pivot on the top. They had longer chain gaps and needed a chain that was "stiffer" laterally. Daido (DID) made all of SunTour's chains. Four different chains were needed for the different derailleurs and freewheels. You could not mix and match chains. Using Shimano's criteria, Accushift had a narrow Rideable Range of Adjustability.

The technical problems were fairly minor and could have been overcome with more time and testing. The critical failure was SunTour's inability to "police" the low-priced market. SunTour desperately needed orders so they could not require complete SunTour gruppos of Accushift-compatible components. They made strong recommendations, but major bike makers, including Schwinn and Raleigh, decided to use up their inventories of old French freewheels, hubs, cables, and casings. Worst of all, they used up the miles of cheap chain in their warehouses. These old components did not provide the critical tolerances needed for reliable indexed shifting.

As the prototypes were assembled and the first bikes were shipped, problems erupted. SunTour rushed engineers and service people from Japan to the factories and the bike shops to identify and correct the problems. Once in a "fire fighting" mode, the cost of doing business increased dramatically and this chewed up the profits needed to develop new products.

When the SunTour AccuShift-equipped bikes reached the customers, they would not index shift well, or they would work for a few weeks and then go out of adjustment. This led to unhappy bicycle buyers and unhappy bike shop mechanics. The "shop rats" in the bike stores quickly learned to prefer Shimano SIS and their complaints worked back up the line to the distributors and eventually to the people who were selecting the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) components for the 1988 bikes. . . For 1989, SunTour had four new AccuShift road gruppos: GPX, Olé, Edge, and Blaze. There were two new mid-priced mountain bike gruppos, XCE 4050 and XCM 3040, and four new low-priced mountain bike rear derailleurs. All of the important SunTour rear derailleurs now had two spring-loaded pivots to go with the horizontal slant parallelograms. In 1989, SunTour was almost as good as Shimano but the OEM buyers made their decisions based on 1987. SunTour never get a second chance. . . By 1990, SunTour and Shimano were close in performance and SunTour had some unique features. However, a "Self-Fulfilling Prophecy" had set in. SunTour offered 12 road and 15 mountain derailleurs, but the people writing OEM specifications chose Shimano because they assumed that Shimano would sell better. There were fewer and fewer SunTour-equipped bikes. Sometimes the buyer would issue a "mercy" specification for one SunTour bike in the entire lineup. The bike shops and the buying public assumed that there was still something wrong with SunTour. Their market share slipped back to 25%. SunTour suffered another major loss and the Japanese banks would not make new loans.
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Old 09-13-14, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Here is a snippet from "Sunset for Suntour" that explans the requirement to use all Suntour Accushift components to make it work reliably. No mixing and matching different brands.
There are tips and tricks to mix and match *some* Shimano and Accushift parts. Shimano SIS 6 speed freewheels are spaced the same as Accushift. I've read on the Sheldon Brown website that Accushift shifters and an SIS derailleur work on a 7 speed SIS freewheel or cassette. Forum member @mrmw created a chart with the spacing for a SIS cassette:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...ml#post8471659

It's not a blanket "you can mix and match any Accushift and SIS components." Nor is it "you cannot mix an match any Accushift and SIS components."
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Old 09-13-14, 11:22 AM
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Consider replacing the trigger shifters with conventional linear travel thumb shifters in friction mode. This will let you mix and match all sorts of combinations, subject only to the shifters' ability to pull cable.
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Old 09-13-14, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
...I've read on the Sheldon Brown website that Accushift shifters and an SIS derailleur work on a 7 speed SIS freewheel or cassette...
and:
...It's not a blanket "you can mix and match any Accushift and SIS components." Nor is it "you cannot mix an match any Accushift and SIS components."
Emphasis on the second point, as the mentioned Sheldon Brown article refers specifically (only) to using 6-sp Accushifter with Shimano derailer to index a 7-speed Shimano freewheel/cassette.

It can get even more particular as to swapping parts for indexing when older, non-indexing derailers are used, as when I used a a 1970's Shimano Tourney derailer with a 7-speed Accushifter, which then indexed a six-speed freewheel, much to my surprise.
It seems that this very old Shimano derailer requires less cable pull than either an SIS Shimano derailer or a Suntour Accushift derailer.
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