Velocivixen

I have really great condition Suntour freewheels on several of my bikes. They look like new and some are NOS. I have taken them all apart, thorough clean, lube, reassemble. I use friction shifting with these with the exception of one 6-speed Accushift setup.

I know I can go buy an inexpensive Shimano or Sunrace, etc. freewheel but wonder if they would be any different shifting? Would I notice? I use Jagwire shifter & brake housing. Just seems that the old freewheels are really well made, very solid like they could last forever if well maintained.

I also have Shimano Uniglide on one of my bikes with 6-speed indexing. The ends of the teeth n the cogs have a twist to them. I know that was meant to assist picking up the chain when shifting.

So, what do you all think? Do modern freewheels or cassettes offer improved shifting using friction only? What differences do you notice?

bikingshearer 

The answer to your question is "yes and no."

Yes because there have been improvements in getting the interface between chains and cogs juuuuust so. That helps any kind of shifting.

No, because the distances between cogs have gotten progressively narrower as the number of cassette cogs has increased, which means your manual friction shifts have decreasing margins for error. It is much easier to do spot-on shifting with modern rear derailleurs than was once the case, meaning if you center the rear derailleur pulleys on the cog you want to shift to you are much more likely to have a nice crisp shift than used to be the case - without that ability, a RD is not very good at indexed shifting, either.

Back in the day, the venerable Campy Nuovo Record would not move the chain until the pulleys overshot the cog a bit. That meant that shifting was always a shift-then-trim maneuver. This was more true than Campy partisans like to admit and less important in practice that Campy bashers assert, but the fact of the matter is that SunTour (and first Shimano and later Campy after SunTours patent on the design expired in 1984) RDs put the chain on the cog on the chain without the need for trimming, resulting in crisper, quicker shifts - if you were skilled and/or experienced enough to be able to move the shifter exactly the right amount. Indexed shifting, when adjusted properly, puts the RD pulleys in that exact right position every time. (When not adjusted properly, it can cost racers big time, as a certain Andy Schleck found out the hard a few years back in the Tour de France.)

This is not a statement that index is better than friction or vice versa - I don't want to get in the middle of that fight (the only nastier one out there is the never-ending "helmets: pro or con" tactical nuclear war that has been going for decades) and it really comes down to personal preference unless you are a racer, in which case I don't see how you can afford not have indexed shifting.

Velocivixen

@bikingshearer - thanks for that feedback. I have. 9-speed cassette on my Surly with Shimano Bar end shifters, able to index or friction. As you said, with cog spacing closer you've got to pay attention. My other bikes have 6-speed friction and the shifting with those is a lot easier to dial in.

ThermionicScott 

+1 to "yes and no."

HyperGlide-style teeth shift much more readily, which is really nice when the hill gets steeper and you realize almost too late that you need to select another gear.

On the other hand, there seems to be less audible feedback when you don't have things lined up well in the back. So once in a while, a ghost-shift will let me know that the only thing keeping me in gear was the Centeron jockey pulley. A person who is skilled at friction shifting will be able to adjust their technique to keep that from happening too often, but it is a risk when you start to get tired and sloppy on a long ride.

3alarmer 

...current indexing type cables and housing help some, the ramping cuts and angled teeth on more modern freewheels help some, and some of the better new chain designs help some, so if you use any of these things, you'll usually notice some improvement. A KMC x-plate chain + decent jagwire housing usually improves the shifting on most of my rebuilds to the point where I don't worry too much about the freewheel, other than to count the cog teeth and figure out the gearing.

I'm not a fan of the Sunrace freewheels I've seen. I've never discarded a Suntour freewheel that was not worn out.

Darth Lefty 

The cog spacing isn't that much tighter, because the cassettes got wider too. It's 5.5 mm on a 5-speed and 4mm on a 10-speed.

Most Shimano hardware is still rooted in the indexing downtube age. The shifters take more cable than a Nuovo Record for the same shift and the spools on the shifters are bigger to make up for it. This reduces tension to improve the detents for the indexing.

Newer designs that were started from a clean sheet in the last decade or so, purpose built for trigger/brifters, take even more cable to reduce the tension further. Shimano Dynasys and SRAM 1:1 and EA all pull/take a lot more cable, and so do Campagnolo ergo's to a lesser extent. This would make your friction lever positions widely spaced again, but between this and the wider cassette you might not be able to pull enough cable overall. As an extreme example a Nuovo Record RD needs about 1cm of cable for a 5-speed freewheel. A SRAM 1:1 needs about 3x as much cable for a 10-speed cassette.

RobbieTunes

I say "yes" and "learn to have a lighter touch."

Mainly, exactly for the reasons stated above.
Less margin for quietness.

jeirvine 

A modern 8 speed chain will also greatly improve shifting on a 5 or 6 speed freewheel. Don't know why, but it does.

The Golden Boy 

My nicest shifting cogs were actually some Maillard Helicomatic cogs.

The basic Shimano 6sp freewheel shifts very nicely as well.

I also have an IRD freewheel, the spacing is goofy on it, the LBS tweaked my derailleur so it doesn't make noise now- I should return it and get a new one.

eschlwc

my quietest setup uses an ird freewheel. it's stealthy. i could sneak up on a mouse... or a mousy pedestrian.

i'm a big fan of the sunrace freewheels. i put 'em on most all my new builds.

i'm trying to sell my suntour freewheels, 'cause i don't like them as well.

Darth Lefty 

I was worried this wouldn't be true, that shifting would need the rivets sticking out. But it's fine.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Dude, that's more than a 25% difference.

John E

Another vote here for 8-speed chains (e.g. SRAM PC-58) on both standard and ultra 6-speed freewheels. The standard 6-speed freewheels have about the same spacing as the old 5-speeds, and the ultras have the same spacing as 7- and 8-speeds.

As others have mentioned, the slant planograph pioneered by SunTour is superior to the traditional parallelogram pioneered by Campagnolo, which in turn was a huge improvement over the old bandspring Simplex and Benelux normal-low changers.

likebike23

+1 on the 8 speed chain and Shimano HG freewheel combo. I've got it on my Mt. Hood and it shifts better than a 5-7 speed chain and suntour freewheel setup on my Gran Turismo.

Jeff Wills

When I was swapping freewheels among bikes, the difference between SunTour and Shimano Uniglide freewheels was dramatic. Since then, I've gone Hyperglide & indexing on all of my bikes but the difference didn't stand out.

I'd like to try friction shifting on a 6 or 7-speed Hyperglide freewheel, but it's late and I'm going to be riding tomorrow.

Antieverything

I think modern 8/9/10 speed cassettes have a smoother/quieter friction shift but does not have that satisfactory clunk feel of a good 5/6/7 speed freewheel. I recently turned all my bikes back to friction and it's made riding more enjoyable for some odd reason no matter what number of cogs I have!

hairnet

I agree. My main bike is 8 speed Hyperglide with Suntour barcons and shifting is smooth, fast, and quiet for the most part. I have limited experience with freewheels(because I break axles) but I have used Suntour Perfects. Shifting was satisfactory but more clunky and tactile.

I should add it's also easier to shift while climbing or under load. I do habitually soft pedal when I shift but it doesn't always happen and the Hyperglide cassettes work well in those conditions. I do use modern deraillers though, that or a Suntour Cyclone GT.

zukahn1 

I have found one of the best setups for friction shifting is a nice vintage Suntour or Malliard Ultra spaced 6 speed freewheel with a modern sram 8 speed chain can be somewhat pricey $80-100 for freewheel and chain. My second choice would be a modern HG type 6speed with a KMC 8speed about $30. since the difference is marginal I would go for the second and spend the extra money on other stuff.

Sixty Fiver

The ramped cogs on HG freewheels provides benefits by allowing better downshifting, especially under load... straight cut cogs like you see on Suntours don't so this as well and technique becomes much more important but on the other hand, Suntour freewheels are exceptionally well made (better internals), and will outlast a Shimano freewheel.

One of the nicer upgrades you can do to an older bicycle is to upgrade the freewheel to an HG and use a modern chain which both work in tandem to provide smoother shifting... and it costs very little to do this.

With that being said, I still run quite a number of Suntour freewheels (friction) because I really like them, enjoy rebuilding and customizing them, and know how to drive a stick.. so to speak.

Velocivixen

@Jeff Wills - what was the dramatic difference between Suntour & Uniglide? Which was better and why? My only Shimano Uniglide is on a 1987 Miyata mixte and I have it set to index.

Thanks everyone on your responses. Very insightful.

I use KMC X8.93 8-speed chains on all my vintage bikes.

zukahn1 

The dramitic differnce between Uniglide and Suntour was the Uniglides had every 4th tooth or so offset to alloy better pickup shifting between gears. If you look at one close it actually looks like a lot of the teeth are bent on a Uniglide the better pickup mainly helped with early indexing and does very little for friction. While the ramps on a nice Hyperglide alloy the chain to slide more smoothley between gears while staying engaged to the cogs longer resulting in beter overall shifting.

OldsCOOL

I have a 7sp HG cassette and just wanted to tell you that with the Shimano 600 RD it shifts very nicely in friction mode. Smoother, quicker and more positive than my suntours.

JohnDThompson 

No, the Uniglide was just the twisted tooth profile; the offset you mention came in a later iteration (Hyperglide?).

Velocivixen

I like having different teeth count on vintage cogs/freewheels that I can't find modern. For example I have a Shimano Z-012 6-speed with 14-30. I looked at new Shimano hG 6 speeds and found 14-28 & another with a 34 I think. Two teeth might not make much difference but just an observation.

Road Fan

I think the answer is yes. I've set up friction with Shimano Hyperglide and Sachs ARIS, both of which I think of as having grabby teeth. I think their tooth shapes do a much better job of lifting the chain from a smaller cog to the next larger one. In so doing it virtually eliminates the need for over shift and feathering back. On 7-speeds, my reaction was, who needs indexing?