jimmuller 

I've been reading the recommendations for vintage rims in another thread, and it's got me to thinkin'. I know, that's not good, but what the heck.

There are lots of good rims mentioned. I believe strongly that rim weight matters and can be felt. Of course width matters for weight and for what size tire could be used. (Whether it matters for your or my average speed isn't the question here.)

But given two rims of more or less equal weight and same number of spokes strung up well on similar hubs and carrying the same type and size tire, how different would they be? Perhaps after 10,000 miles or a bit of abuse one might remain true better than the other. I would imagine the eyelet style matter for this kind of longevity. Catastrophic events such as hitting potholes can always happen. On the other hand, I weigh only 158 lbs and don't regularly ride over curbs.

Or maybe one rim might brake better, I don't know. Mounting a tire might be easier or harder.

But what else, really? Could you tell the difference between two such rims? If you rode blindfolded?

Road Fan

I don't think I could feel the difference if the weight is the same. I'd expect durability to be affected by design and by material, given equal build characteristics.

Desertdweller

I have 2 bikes the same, same tires.
1 Mavic MA40/Campy Record 36. 1Halo Retro/Campy GS
very different feel to the bikes
Halo's feel faster accelerating Mavic's seem to cruise better.

ldmataya 

Every component of a wheel, including a hub, transmits force, contributes to momentum, and absorbs shock. There are so many factors that I'm always suspicious of anyone who can attribute a different feel to a specific component - other than tire pressure. (Anyone who rides cross knows you can completely change the handling of a wheel with +/- 5 lbs of pressure, which of course is around 20% of the total pressure.)

So I don't think you can attribute anything to a rim alone. Even if two wheels are completely identical except for a rim, there is still the hub to spoke to rim interface and the rim to tire interface. There you go - 4 factors that influence wheel performance that won't be the same if you put that rim in a different environment.

That doesn't mean that one rim could not or will not perform much better than another - it just means that you won't know it until you finish building the wheel, pump up the tire, put it on a particular bike, and do a long ride.

upthywazzoo 

I used to use Kinlin XR-270 rims laced to 36H Campy hubs. I now use H+Son Archetype laced to wide flange BHS hubs. I don't believe either set of rims on their own would have made a big difference in road feel. However, the combination of a slightly wider tire profile, much stiffer, higher tension build (since I learned a bit more about wheelbuilding since building the Kinlins) have given me much more confidence in corners. Comfort-wise, I didn't notice any difference. Speed, no difference.

In short, I probably could have built an excellent wheel with either rim.

repechage

When I started racing and had my first set of race wheels they were Fiamme yellow labels, then augmented with a pair of Super Champion Medale d' Ore's, Clement Cirterium Seta Extras.
When I was winning races they were Super Champion Competitions or heavier with Clement Paris-Roubaix or Strada 66 tires, (weather selected)
The moral if any is that it is more important to have the added security of finishing than the light weight.

Italuminium

Build quality.

comparing a nice vintage pair of perfectly good mavic rims with some modern (Alex) rims, both anodized and 32 holes, the difference shows. The fit and finish is just so much nicer on the mavics. Things like burs on the drilling of a valve hole might not be the end of the world, but it's nice when that sort of niggles are already sorted at the factory. Rim "trueness" (is that even a word?) is a factor too, at least it is to picky experienced wheelbuilders like Peter White. Apparently, high quality rims are much easier to build up to a wheel that's true and stays that way. (Custom Wheel Building)

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

Agree completely. A nice Velocity rim is so much easier to build, true and get evenly tensioned than say a Sun CR-18.

As for durability I'd say that a wheel that's properly and evenly tensioned is gonna be the most durable...it follows naturally for me that a higher quality rim (being easier to properly tension) will hold true for longer. Also the design of the cross-section would seem to have a bearing on durability...rim makers wouldn't be so particular about it if it wasn't. I'm not convinced that eyelets necessarily make for a stronger rim. Heavier and better looking, yes... more durable? I'm not convinced.

Then again maybe its the marketing dept. that matters most ;-)

OldsCOOL

I can feel tire differences in width and weight much more readily than rims of the same size. Of course, when you have a major wheel weight difference it becomes rather obvious.

Bill Kapaun

I kind of wonder about the "bare" rims he sells.
I bought a Velocity Synergy OC from him and it basically had as many "imperfections" as the meat & potatoes Sun Rim M13II & Cr-18's I use.
I opine that he may build the best and sell the rest???

noglider 

If tires, spoke counts, rim weights, and rim widths are the same, I seriously doubt you can tell the difference between different rim models. Some rims of a given weight do hold up better because of manufacturing quality and materials. Fiamme rims were pretty crappy. French rims of that period were definitely better. Modern rims are even better. Even the Sun CR-18 is as good as the old Mavic rims which I considered to be the best at the time.

gerv 

Agree.

jimmuller 

Interesting responses, all. I've been pondering this further. Of course a "better" rim should be easier to buildup into a true wheel. I've also has one rim where the two sides of the seam didn't line up so well. I chalked it up to the low cost, something I wouldn't expect on a more expensive rim, but I eventually got it working okay.

Jobst Brandt's book The bicycle Wheel describes the spokes support the rider's weight in a way such that the tension is reduced at the road contact point. This means the rim must deform slightly where it contacts the road. So in principle a stiffer rim would behave differently. Whether it is significant enough for the rider to notice isn't clear.

pcb 

I'm kind of blessed, I think, by not having keen senses. I can feel differences with tire widths/weights/pressures, but I'm pretty oblivious to spoke count, db/sg spokes, rim profile, etc. I'm usually happy I'm riding, struggling regardless of terrain, and aside from the tires, the wheels are just kinda low-level noise.

That said and out of the way, I'd guess that equivalent weight rims that required different spoke tensions, all other things being equal, might have discernible differences to those more sensitive than me. Maybe different profiles as well, a 450g 21mm shallow box-section rim might feel different than a 450g 40mm deep-v.

noglider 

As I remember, he said clearly and emphatically that a rider cannot notice these differences. After all, the tire is a lot squishier than the rim.

gomango

Did you contact him about this problem?

Instead of ripping him on a forum?

What did he say?

He has an excellent rep and this business model you suggest won't keep the lights on for very long.

randyjawa 

Wheel weight has a huge impact on ride quality, in my opinion. The heavier the wheel, the more the impact. But the impact need not be considered negative, in many instances.

A heavy wheel, particularly rim and tire, will offer a feeling of increased stability to the bicycle. This will make is seem (an be) less agile and, perhaps, a bit slower in the acceleration department. Want to actually feel the difference that weight makes?

Begin by understanding that bicycle wheels are, in reality, gyroscopes. Accept that, and the following will make sense...

Take two wheels, one with a light rim and tire, the other heavy. Hold, one at a time, and give the wheel a good hard spin. Now, try to tip the wheel back and forth, off of vertical. See how it tries to not tip.

Now, do the same thing with the lighter wheel rim/tire set. You will immediately see how much less effort, on your part, is needed to get the wheel off of its vertical center line.

So, if that feeling is part of a bicycle, does it not make sense that the lighter wheel will offer the appearance of improved performance, in the agility and acceleration departments.

Of course, we sacrifice durability for speed and agility. That said, a touring bicycle would want a fairly heavy set of strong wheels, perfect for carrying loads while remaining as stable as possible. A racing bike - agility and acceleration are the wanted targets.

Just an old guy's opinion, in case anyone is interested.

bradtx

jimmuller, In the '90s I was building and rebuilding using new parts exclusively and experimenting with different rims, spoke counts and tires. Tires made the greatest difference even with dissimilar wheels. To be fair my '89 Cannondale was a little more sensitive to change than the other Cannondales.

Brad

rhm

If you're going to notice anything about the rim while you're riding, I think it will be how smooth do the brakes feel. I have noticed on some rims you can feel the seam, while on others you cannot, even if both wheels are "true" to the same tolerances and do not appear to be damaged.

Another factor that makes some rims "better" than others is how they fit the tires. Some rim+tire combinations are better than others. A good combination is one where the tire is easy to install, easy to seat, and easy to remove again. In an ideal world, where I could try out all the options and chose which I like best, I'd start by picking the best (however you want to define that) tire. Then I'd find the rim that fits it best. That rim-- the one that best fits the best tire-- would be the best rim. This being the real world, however, I haven't found the time to undertake such complicated testing.

Italuminium

Yes, how close rims are to advertised size matters a lot. From my own experience and what I've read online, Campagnolo rims tend to run very tight, for instance. The aforementioned Alex rims run very loose. Nice to get tires on, but dangerous: I had a particularly loose set of tires (Kenda 23mm skinwalls) rotate on my while "just riding along"! Definitely not a good sign. When I removed them to mount another, more close-fitting tires the rim was filled with sand and dust, even though the tires were at 100 psi.

noglider 

I have never heard of that happening! That sounds terrible.

Italuminium

It's disconcerting. It happened way back when I got into (re)building my own bikes for the first time, about 5 years ago. I bought cheap kit, because I wasn't sure I was going to like FG riding and didn't want to invest too much in wheels and tires. You get what you pay for, as they say, but it was a perfect storm of both rims and tires way, way out of spec.

jimmuller 

This all very interesting. I must add that my tendency has been to use inexpensive rims. I have Sun M13-II on several bikes and except for the one seam have had no reason to doubt them. The Bianchi has 32-spoke (straight gauge SS) MA40s which I didn't build, but other than them seeming to spin up more easily I can't say they are different from the Suns. However the clincher wheels I built for the Masi, 32-spoke Torelli Masters with Vittoria Open Corsas and now with Veloflex Masters, are noticeably lighter to both the hand and the feet, and yes the Vittorias were devilishly hard to mount at first. The rear wheel I built for the tandem has a 36-spoke A319 with the huge flange diameter drum-brake hub. Neither the Suns nor the Torellis nor the A319 were hard to true and all have stayed true. So one reason I raise the question is second-guessing my own rim choices. Other than the weight I see little value in a more expensive rim for most purposes.

He did say that. I should go check, but IIRC he was talking about whether a rider could feel a difference in ride smoothness due to spoke tension. His logic says that the lateral stability especially is limited by when the tension in the bottom spokes goes to zero. The excess tension over the loss of tension from the rim deformation at the contact patch defines the margin of error. So since there is no benefit of ride smoothness from a less tightly-strung wheel you might as well build the wheel as tight as possible.

What I was really thinking with that question was how different rims deform and how that affects wheel stability. In order for the rim to deform at the contact patch it must bow outward a little immediately in front of and behind the contact patch. So those spokes would see a slight increase in tension. The softer the rim, meaning the lower its effective spring constant to a radial force, the greater these effects would be. My intuition says a softer rim could be weaker if not built well or if not tight. Of course too if the deformation exceeds the point of permanent deformation then the rim is toast, as happened to my MA2.

One would think rim design (cross-sectional shape and materials) must make some stronger than others. The only question is how much matters. General experience seems to argue that for heavy loads such as touring or abusive riding the rim choice does matter.

noglider 

Jim, my understanding is that when the bottom spokes loosen, the other spokes might tighten but they do so uniformly, not greater at the sides than at the top.

fietsbob

Well when you start out with an expensive heat treated after rolling into a circle , one

A rim that starts out round and has no side to side run-out, so flat in that dimension, will be quicker to build .

But a lower cost rim will not be any Trauma when you hit something and permanently deform it , to just buy another low cost wheel ,

and go on with your life.