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  1. #1
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Bertin frame information

    hi folks ,
    Have this rather scruffy Bertin frame which I intend to give a makeover . Trying to nail down the date . Hopefully you knowledgeable folks can help ?

    specs as follows

    120mm OLN
    26.4 seat post diam
    milremo dropouts
    three top tube cable guides
    dynamo ? tag on rear stay
    no lever brazeons ( came with clamp on suntour)
    english threaded bottom bracket and head set
    numbers stamped on left rear dropout 56 (size?) , 8* (cant read second digit) and 8688 (serial no ? )
    Any other info needed ?


    DSC07320.jpgDSC07326.jpgDSC07394.jpgDSC07344.jpgDSC07339.jpgDSC07324.jpgDSC07333.jpgDSC07393.jpgbertin.jpgDSC07336.jpg
    Last edited by 1simplexnut; 11-16-14 at 04:01 AM. Reason: added pic

  2. #2
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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  3. #3
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    Later 70's to early 80's

    This is one I might reference the component date codes on.

  4. #4
    "part timer" SuperLJ's Avatar
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    Based on the Durifort tubes, generator tab, 120mm spacing, and English threading, I'm guessing it's an early to mid 1980s C31. Earlier than that would have lacked the braze-ons and had French threads, later Bertins had different graphics.

    2 out of the 3 Bertins that I've owned have had the year of manufacture stamped on the left dropout, so I'll bet 8* is your answer.
    Last edited by SuperLJ; 11-16-14 at 08:26 AM.
    '75 Raleigh GS * '78 Bertin C-35 * '82 Trek 614 * '95 Mercian * '98 Fisher HKEK * Y2K Rivendell * '02 Heron Tour

  5. #5
    Senior Member bertinjim's Avatar
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    1simplexnut-

    SuperLJ is probably right about it being a C 31. They typically came without fenders or lights and yours appears to have had the stock steel crankset replaced with a Sugino Super Maxy which would never had been factory fitted as Bertin was the French Shimano distributor. The frames were full Durifort and tabbed for the generator and drilled for wiring (check the bottom of the lower head lug for drilling for internal wiring).

    However, it might be a C 132 which was the same frame, but fully kitted with generator, lights and Bluemels fenders and a TA front rack. The lack of mounting marks on the generator tab makes it more probably a C 31.


    I think SuperLJ is correct about the period as well. My 1982 catalogue shows decals just like yours. The wheels would have been Maillard or Milremo HF, QR on Mavic Module E 3 rims with Wolber Super Sport 700C x 25 gumwall tires. Good luck with the restoration.

  6. #6
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
    1simplexnut-

    SuperLJ is probably right about it being a C 31. They typically came without fenders or lights and yours appears to have had the stock steel crankset replaced with a Sugino Super Maxy which would never had been factory fitted as Bertin was the French Shimano distributor. The frames were full Durifort and tabbed for the generator and drilled for wiring (check the bottom of the lower head lug for drilling for internal wiring).

    However, it might be a C 132 which was the same frame, but fully kitted with generator, lights and Bluemels fenders and a TA front rack. The lack of mounting marks on the generator tab makes it more probably a C 31.


    I think SuperLJ is correct about the period as well. My 1982 catalogue shows decals just like yours. The wheels would have been Maillard or Milremo HF, QR on Mavic Module E 3 rims with Wolber Super Sport 700C x 25 gumwall tires. Good luck with the restoration.
    Aha! I wondered what the holes were for ! Mystery solved. Thanks everyone for your excellent input. Does that catalogue you have list the components?
    Have been contemplating the following based on the spare parts I have in my stash

    mafac racer brakes
    stronglight 93d cranks with lyotard 460 pedals

    wheels - was thinking about using a set of hf campag / mod E clincher rims
    but reading Jims comments I might use a set of HF milremo/ fiamme tubs

    Derailleurs - Have the choice of 80s NR campagnolo or a set of simplex non delrin

    Question - Is it wrong to mix Italian and french components ? My 80s PX10 with NR campag would say not :-)

    Any feedback on above appreciated

    Thanks

  7. #7
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
    Indeed I have ! Isnt it a great site ! All seemed to be slightly different though from my frame .

  8. #8
    Senior Member bertinjim's Avatar
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    1simplexnut-

    Thanks for the compliment on the site. I will try and scan the catalogue pages for the C 31 and the C 132 add them here. When you say "makeover" I assume you mean make the bike rideable and safe for personal enjoyment. If so, mixing components is no big deal. Bertins were offered at a price point with all French or French/Milremo equipment and then often had other spec options like Shimano and Campy. As well, distributors and shops up specced and downspecced to suit their local needs so there is no need for be purist about equipment fitting. Your proposal of Stronglight, Lyotard, Mafac seems fine and the pre-existing HF Campy wheels give the period look. If you like or have Milremo kit, suit yourself in terms of preference. There is a full on 10 part restoration series on the site you might like to read as well.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bertinjim's Avatar
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  10. #10
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post



    Hi Jim , thanks for going to the effort of scanning those catalogue pages for me . Most informative .

    I had a good read through your 10 part restoration and will probably go that way eventually . Currently just cleaning up the frame and will do a fit up of all the parts to make sure it all fits and looks right
    I was presuming that head set was 1" because of japanese SR stem fitted . It appears that it is 25mm going by measurement of fork tube and checking nuts etc . Might have to use the sand paper trick to take off .2mm

    Also when I started taking bottom bracket out found something strange. It had a *** nadex cartridge unit fitted and when I removed the non drive cup the rest of the unit just spun around in bottom bracket tube without coming out .
    Had me puzzled ? Finally decided to give spindel a bit of a tap with a soft faced hammer ( not hard ) and the unit started moving .
    I had a good hard look at threads in bottom bracket tube and they look ok .
    Anyway I guess there is a question for you ?

    1..... Is it possible the thread on the alloy cartridge unit had flogged out ?
    2......Could the bottom bracket unit thread be completely wrong ? english put in a french thread ? yikes
    3......What thread is it likely to be if headset is 25x1

    Any thoughts/ suggestions would be most welcome

  11. #11
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    a question for all of the Andy experts -

    am wondering about this pastel pinkish colour. do you think it looked like that ex-works or was it originally a reddish hue that has been faded by uv exposure? have had some reddish flambouyants come through which were clearly very faded.

    thanks for your thoughts.

  12. #12
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    Would not be the first French thread bottom bracket shell assaulted by an English thread bottom bracket.
    French stuff is not easy to find sometimes, so when time is short...

    Look at the bottom bracket threading especially the drive side inside the shell to see what had happened, English taps may have been employed.

  13. #13
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juvela View Post
    a question for all of the Andy experts -

    am wondering about this pastel pinkish colour. do you think it looked like that ex-works or was it originally a reddish hue that has been faded by uv exposure? have had some reddish flambouyants come through which were clearly very faded.

    thanks for your thoughts.
    Just a guess but, I suspect that looks pretty close to how it looked originally. Except a bit faded. Similar color to the mid 70's Moto Le Champion. It's a pretty color. I'll bet some light rubbing or polishing compound would bring it out pretty well.

  14. #14
    Senior Member bertinjim's Avatar
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    1simplexnut-

    It's possible the BB was re-threaded, or that they just jammed in an English one cutting new threads in the Nadex, or that they used Italian. Best get a known cup and gently try it.
    The SR stem may be French. I had one in a Peugeot. Check the SR diameter it should be 22 mm or slightly under for French or 22.2 for English. The pinkish colour is slightly faded but it is a standard 1980s Bertin factory applied colour. You might find the threading standard stamped into the lock nut of the headset as well. It would look like 25 x 1 for French metric threading.

  15. #15
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    hi, unfortunately I think it is past polishing etc . See picture I just loaded
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
    1simplexnut-

    It's possible the BB was re-threaded, or that they just jammed in an English one cutting new threads in the Nadex, or that they used Italian. Best get a known cup and gently try it.
    The SR stem may be French. I had one in a Peugeot. Check the SR diameter it should be 22 mm or slightly under for French or 22.2 for English. The pinkish colour is slightly faded but it is a standard 1980s Bertin factory applied colour. You might find the threading standard stamped into the lock nut of the headset as well. It would look like 25 x 1 for French metric threading.
    Hi Jim

    Again I thank you for your learned advice .!
    Sure now the headset is 25mm. checked nut against 1" fork and definitely different .

    As to the bottom bracket I think you are right about the nadex being jammed in . French thread is slightly bigger diam than english yes?
    Also the nadex non drive side is held in with a nut that threads on to outside of cartridge allowing you to ignore the BB tube threading .

    I am pretty sure I have a french BB in the parts pile so will have a dig and check .

    Have just added picture of frame after degrease and it is pretty much toast in my opinion. Keen to do a repaint but now need to decide on colour ?
    What other colours did they come in ?

  17. #17
    Senior Member bertinjim's Avatar
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    1simplexnut-

    My 82 catalogue shows gold, white, medium orange, metallic red, silver, darkish taupey-silver, medium metallic turquoise, metallic orange, medium silver-blue, red, the pinky rosey colour you have already, black and metallic mid-brown. These came with and without headtube and seattube contrasting panels and with and without chrome on forks and stays. If a colour appeals, let me know and I will scan the catalogue page so you can see it in colour.

  18. #18
    Senior Member 1simplexnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
    1simplexnut-

    My 82 catalogue shows gold, white, medium orange, metallic red, silver, darkish taupey-silver, medium metallic turquoise, metallic orange, medium silver-blue, red, the pinky rosey colour you have already, black and metallic mid-brown. These came with and without headtube and seattube contrasting panels and with and without chrome on forks and stays. If a colour appeals, let me know and I will scan the catalogue page so you can see it in colour.
    Jim ,

    Found the attached picture of a frame that I quite liked the look of . Oddly enough was sold here in New Zealand recently . Apparently new old stock .
    I quite like the colour and wondered if it was the same as "medium metallic turquoise" that you have in your catalogue . could you scan the page with that colour for me please .

    Thanks in advance .DSC_7666 (1400x937).jpg

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