Playing card symbols in bikes...
11-17-14, 03:19 PM
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Playing card symbols in bikes...
I'm curious if anyone knows the meaning or the background of why some frame makers like Ciocc, Colnago, Richard Sachs, etc. use playing card symbols on there bike frames. Mostly I have seen them on the forks but I'm sure there are other examples elsewhere in the lugs.
Anyone have any insight? Is it to pay tribute to something or to show that the rider is a gambler?
It's just something I have always wondered about.
From Richard Sachs:
Anyone have any insight? Is it to pay tribute to something or to show that the rider is a gambler?
It's just something I have always wondered about.
From Richard Sachs:
11-17-14, 03:32 PM
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I've read that "Ciocc" is the nickname of the guy that built Ciocc bikes, and it translates to "poker face"
11-17-14, 03:40 PM
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Paul uses card symbols on many of their components too. No idea why.
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11-17-14, 04:05 PM
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As to the playing card theme, CdM may have a perspective, as I recall someone familiar with Italian racing from long ago made a reasonable connection about the luck of card games and the luck of winning bicycle races.
11-17-14, 04:43 PM
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And gamblin's for fools
But that's the way I like it, baby
I don't want to live forever.
And don't forget the Joker.
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11-17-14, 05:25 PM
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The reinforcements used by Richard Sachs are buyout parts, they were available to anyone. At this point, Richard might have ordered the "last run" or secured a supply. Silva might have made them. He selected them and at some point around the custom builders he became known for them. <cut> .
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11-17-14, 05:48 PM
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I have wondered that myself. Conversely, why do playing cards have Bicycles on them?
11-17-14, 06:16 PM
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Ever thought that the symbols might just be that...symbols...and nothing to do with cards? A diamond is a diamond, cloverleaf (oops, club) is a cloverleaf, etc...
11-17-14, 08:50 PM
#10
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I have a pretty hard time imagining that an example of the symbols associated with all four suits, collected together (as on those reinforcements, or as associated with the Ciocc marque), lacks any connection to playing cards, on which those same four symbols have appeared in association with one another for centuries. Clearly there is a direct, intended reference to the suits on playing cards here.
If just one of these symbols in isolation - maybe, but still probably not. Colnago = club, Confente = spade...I'm already sensing a pattern, and that sense gets awfully strong once I get to Ciocc, etc.
There really does seem to be a pattern of use of these symbols in the bicycling world, and perhaps the most famous example, the Colnago 'cloverleaf', seems to have been referred to all along in Italian (by Ernesto Colnago, no less) as the asso di fiori...i.e. 'the ace of clubs', though 'fiori/fiore' means 'flower(s)' in Italian (plural/singular forms of the same word), and that latter association may have had a role in the symbol's selection for the logo also.
There are some stories about that, apparently, that offer differing accounts of the addition of the club symbol to the 'C' as Colnago's logo ca. 1970.
For some fragments from published accounts of the origin of the Colnago 'Ace of Clubs' logo, check out:
ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Unraveling the Mystery of the Colnago "Clubs"
I don't know if there's a bigger story here in terms some specific set of associations between the set of symbols associated with playing cards and cycling/racing more generally...but I'd be inclined to dismiss out of hand the contention that it's just a coincidence, and would love to hear more if folks have any insight into this question!
Last edited by mikemowbz; 11-17-14 at 09:15 PM. Reason: clarity...and a couple of typos
11-17-14, 09:00 PM
#11
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Could you enlighten us why you used them on you lugset?
I guess DeRosa's have hearts as well, Paul Components have a single speed crankset with it as well.
11-18-14, 05:14 AM
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CIOCC.
Some say CIOCC is Italian Slang for Poker Face....
Some say CIOCC is Italian Slang for Poker Face....
11-18-14, 06:27 AM
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Right, but how does that explain the pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers. And blue diamonds?
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11-18-14, 07:06 AM
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The part of the quote that I replied to.
Look. In my book, none of this matters much, especially some 40 years after the fact. I'm not going to speak to the use of playing card figures as individual design elements used by bicycle makers back in the day, because that's all it was. Some folks needed/wanted a way to differentiate. Some used color (paint). Some had a unique confluence of tubes. Some had unusual fork bends. It was a simpler time, that's all atmo. There's no deep, hidden meaning regarding card suits and bicycle logos.
For my part in the thread, my own picture is in the OP and there are comments about the blade liners. The shortest way to cover all the bases is to paste in an unedited reply I sent to VeloNews ten years ago (2004) when the same questions were being asked. I'll restate what may not be the obvious from my reply: the reason the parts entered the mainstream in the states (in the 1970s) was because I opened that door. I was ground zero here for them and, one by one and peer by peer, I gave them away or sold them or eventually hooked up my pals with my source. And I still have the letters Baylis, Serotta, and others wrote to me asking about them, and could I sell some.
Here -
Look. In my book, none of this matters much, especially some 40 years after the fact. I'm not going to speak to the use of playing card figures as individual design elements used by bicycle makers back in the day, because that's all it was. Some folks needed/wanted a way to differentiate. Some used color (paint). Some had a unique confluence of tubes. Some had unusual fork bends. It was a simpler time, that's all atmo. There's no deep, hidden meaning regarding card suits and bicycle logos.
For my part in the thread, my own picture is in the OP and there are comments about the blade liners. The shortest way to cover all the bases is to paste in an unedited reply I sent to VeloNews ten years ago (2004) when the same questions were being asked. I'll restate what may not be the obvious from my reply: the reason the parts entered the mainstream in the states (in the 1970s) was because I opened that door. I was ground zero here for them and, one by one and peer by peer, I gave them away or sold them or eventually hooked up my pals with my source. And I still have the letters Baylis, Serotta, and others wrote to me asking about them, and could I sell some.
Here -
Dear Lennard,
I think the best way to start is at the beginning, circa 1974. My best friend was in sales in the bicycle industry. There was a point in time when he traded lines with a European fellow; my friend represented the European fellow’s lines in North America – the other guy represented my friend’s goods overseas. In 1975, my friend met his guy in Belgium and the European guy was starting to sell framebuilding parts, the fork liner with the playing card figures was among these pieces. My friend returned with some to show me. I had my friend immediately order me 2000 pieces because I thought they’d give my brand some much-needed élan. Nothing more. Nothing less. In the ensuing years, whenever friends in the industry asked me about these parts and I freely sold from my inventory or gave the source information away. By 1980 these parts were so *^$%#? ubiquitous that I tired of seeing them on forks I made. Simply put, they became too common. Fast forward to 1992. That year, I added a limited edition 20th Anniversary model frameset and “re-introduced” the playing card pieces on my forks as a way to bridge the eras, especially since by that time most had forsaken using fork crowns and some even started using pre-built forks. In essence, I was the first North American user of this design. In the early days of my frame-building career I sought ways to have my look be unique and interesting. Had I not been as magnanimous, I could have been the only user, because my friend and his European contact did not see much profit to be made in these small low cost parts. The happy ending to all this is that about seven years ago I found the son of the original supplier – and he still had the remaining stocks of these pieces which had not been reproduced since the 1970s. I made a deal to buy all 9000-plus parts, partly to ensure that my supply would never run out and partly to be able to offer them with the Richard Sachs fork crown that I was about to bring to the market. So, to answer the “Why?” question about the playing card motif, the only thing I can say is “Because!”
Richard Sachs
I think the best way to start is at the beginning, circa 1974. My best friend was in sales in the bicycle industry. There was a point in time when he traded lines with a European fellow; my friend represented the European fellow’s lines in North America – the other guy represented my friend’s goods overseas. In 1975, my friend met his guy in Belgium and the European guy was starting to sell framebuilding parts, the fork liner with the playing card figures was among these pieces. My friend returned with some to show me. I had my friend immediately order me 2000 pieces because I thought they’d give my brand some much-needed élan. Nothing more. Nothing less. In the ensuing years, whenever friends in the industry asked me about these parts and I freely sold from my inventory or gave the source information away. By 1980 these parts were so *^$%#? ubiquitous that I tired of seeing them on forks I made. Simply put, they became too common. Fast forward to 1992. That year, I added a limited edition 20th Anniversary model frameset and “re-introduced” the playing card pieces on my forks as a way to bridge the eras, especially since by that time most had forsaken using fork crowns and some even started using pre-built forks. In essence, I was the first North American user of this design. In the early days of my frame-building career I sought ways to have my look be unique and interesting. Had I not been as magnanimous, I could have been the only user, because my friend and his European contact did not see much profit to be made in these small low cost parts. The happy ending to all this is that about seven years ago I found the son of the original supplier – and he still had the remaining stocks of these pieces which had not been reproduced since the 1970s. I made a deal to buy all 9000-plus parts, partly to ensure that my supply would never run out and partly to be able to offer them with the Richard Sachs fork crown that I was about to bring to the market. So, to answer the “Why?” question about the playing card motif, the only thing I can say is “Because!”
Richard Sachs
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11-18-14, 07:33 AM
#16
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Thanks for the reply Mr. Sachs. I appreciate the candid response. I was never aware of this Velonews' letter and couldn't find an answer on Google search. For me "because" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Now I just wonder why the Italian companies used these symbols.
Now I just wonder why the Italian companies used these symbols.
11-18-14, 07:44 AM
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Now I just wonder why the Italian companies used these symbols.
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11-18-14, 07:52 AM
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Fair enough. Too bad though, I was hoping for an ancient frame builders guild or cycling illuminati that you were carrying on the traditions of. Again, appreciate the participation here, thanks.
11-18-14, 08:01 AM
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That's a joke, sort of....
11-18-14, 08:28 AM
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Yeah, symbolism would be nice (and that's where my mind always goes too), but I bet someone did it to stand out, and then someone else thought, "hey that looks cool, I should do that too" and boom...
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11-18-14, 08:37 AM
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The part of the quote that I replied to.
Look. In my book, none of this matters much, especially some 40 years after the fact. I'm not going to speak to the use of playing card figures as individual design elements used by bicycle makers back in the day, because that's all it was. Some folks needed/wanted a way to differentiate. Some used color (paint). Some had a unique confluence of tubes. Some had unusual fork bends. It was a simpler time, that's all atmo. There's no deep, hidden meaning regarding card suits and bicycle logos.
For my part in the thread, my own picture is in the OP and there are comments about the blade liners. The shortest way to cover all the bases is to paste in an unedited reply I sent to VeloNews ten years ago (2004) when the same questions were being asked. I'll restate what may not be the obvious from my reply: the reason the parts entered the mainstream in the states (in the 1970s) was because I opened that door. I was ground zero here for them and, one by one and peer by peer, I gave them away or sold them or eventually hooked up my pals with my source. And I still have the letters Baylis, Serotta, and others wrote to me asking about them, and could I sell some.
Here -
Look. In my book, none of this matters much, especially some 40 years after the fact. I'm not going to speak to the use of playing card figures as individual design elements used by bicycle makers back in the day, because that's all it was. Some folks needed/wanted a way to differentiate. Some used color (paint). Some had a unique confluence of tubes. Some had unusual fork bends. It was a simpler time, that's all atmo. There's no deep, hidden meaning regarding card suits and bicycle logos.
For my part in the thread, my own picture is in the OP and there are comments about the blade liners. The shortest way to cover all the bases is to paste in an unedited reply I sent to VeloNews ten years ago (2004) when the same questions were being asked. I'll restate what may not be the obvious from my reply: the reason the parts entered the mainstream in the states (in the 1970s) was because I opened that door. I was ground zero here for them and, one by one and peer by peer, I gave them away or sold them or eventually hooked up my pals with my source. And I still have the letters Baylis, Serotta, and others wrote to me asking about them, and could I sell some.
Here -
What I believe to be an 83' Sachs does have the cards, as does the 79'.
To me, the cards remind me of my childhood intro to cycling - adding playing cards to the spokes. The location on the suits on the fork tang sort of reinforces that association.
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 11-18-14 at 08:44 AM.
11-18-14, 08:49 AM
#23
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What were the time lines for when you stopped using the cards? I'm sure that it's a product of my age, but I find them somewhat affected, and agree they were overly ubiquitous in the early 80s. I'm certain that in 1978 I would have found them exotic and distinctive.
What I believe to be an 83' Sachs does have the cards, as does the 79'.
To me, the cards remind me of my childhood intro to cycling - adding playing cards to the spokes.
What I believe to be an 83' Sachs does have the cards, as does the 79'.
To me, the cards remind me of my childhood intro to cycling - adding playing cards to the spokes.
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11-18-14, 08:52 AM
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Thanks, Mr. Sachs, I had wondered why the suits were used by different frame builders, or manufacturers, your replies clears this up for me. In previous instances where this question was posed, it was a lot of conjecture, as you said, in your Kennedy Era statement, above. "Because" feels much better for me, not one to buy into a lot of the wild conjectured ideas out there about bicycles, and their lore. Your time and input are appreciated, very much.
Bill
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11-18-14, 09:02 AM
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Yes - read the letter to VN. I stopped by 1979/1980 because I got sick of what I essentially enabled. I let the others run with it. But here, I was done with the part (even though I had thousands in stock..). In 1980 I switched to what looked like 2 shovels punched into the fork liner. In 1992 when I was doing the 20th Anniversary Frame model, I thought that, since no one was even making forks anymore, much less the kind in which a crown enveloped a decorative liner, I'd reintroduce the part. I did just that, and then continued using them ever since. And as I wrote, I found out that the son of my original source still had some (by then he was a client of mine...) and I bought the lot of them to add to what I originally started in the early 1970s.
I guess the real part of my question becomes were they occasionally used after 1980, perhaps as a custom request, or is my Sachs roadie earlier than I believed it to be?
