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Headtube lug separation: options?

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Headtube lug separation: options?

Old 12-18-14, 04:45 AM
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Headtube lug separation: options?

Headtube lugs look like they're separating from the top tube and down tube. No signs of crash or bent fork so not sure how it happened. Have a feeling it might be an expensive repair...

What are my options?
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Old 12-18-14, 04:54 AM
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Got any pics?
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Old 12-18-14, 05:16 AM
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Old 12-18-14, 05:39 AM
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Easy as pie for a competent welder to fix. Two options...

First, the gap is (most likely) original, right from day one. The lug is not really pulling apart from the tube. I could be wrong as I am basing my guess on pictures, rather than personal inspection.

Fix one includes simply brazing or silver soldering the lug/tube junction. Minimal heat, to get the parent metal warm enough to accept melted brass or silver solder. Either the brass or silver solder will be drawn into the gap, completing the repair, except for paint work.

Option two is to use less heat, flux and ordinary solder. This will not impart much more strength but it will fill the gap. Paint touch up will be required, but not much.

Again, this sort of repair is good only if the joint is original and not moving.
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Old 12-18-14, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa
Easy as pie for a competent welder to fix. Two options...

First, the gap is (most likely) original, right from day one. The lug is not really pulling apart from the tube. I could be wrong as I am basing my guess on pictures, rather than personal inspection.

Fix one includes simply brazing or silver soldering the lug/tube junction. Minimal heat, to get the parent metal warm enough to accept melted brass or silver solder. Either the brass or silver solder will be drawn into the gap, completing the repair, except for paint work.

Option two is to use less heat, flux and ordinary solder. This will not impart much more strength but it will fill the gap. Paint touch up will be required, but not much.

Again, this sort of repair is good only if the joint is original and not moving.

Thank you for the sound advice. The joint is not moving but the top lug looks to have moved quite a bit. The yellow substance looks like brazing material and it's where the lug should've been. The bike is nice enough that I am strongly leaning for a repair if it's reasonable.
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Old 12-18-14, 06:04 AM
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The joint has to cleaned of all rust and debris. Either sandblasting or wire wheel. On repairs such as that I use oven cleaner, rinse and silver braze.
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Old 12-18-14, 07:16 AM
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Can you use silver solder to fill such a wide gap?
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Old 12-18-14, 08:37 AM
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It was hit. No question. Top tube is rippled.
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Old 12-18-14, 08:52 AM
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The images are not the sharpest overall but I see poor initial brazing and trauma as miamijim mentioned.
I don't agree that the gap of the one lug is an easy silver fix. Both silver and brass need a clean surface to attach to.
Cleaning that out might be done by a product like pickle-x pro... But a senance would need to be held to ask Fred Parr.

Now for a practical matter.... Ride or retire? I have become conservative. Retire. A real fix is not economical, you might do it as a learning experience. I would cut the head tube in half, watch the frame spring, then torch off the head lugs and braze in a new head tube, and maybe a new top tube or down tube depending on what the frame tells you after you bisect the head tube.
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Old 12-18-14, 10:08 AM
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I'd check the inside of the head tube to see if the crack is confined to the joint or extends through the head tube. If the head tube itself is cracked, you're looking at a much more extensive repair.
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Old 12-18-14, 11:53 AM
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What kind of frame is this? Some are worth fixing, and others are not.
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Old 12-18-14, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
What kind of frame is this? Some are worth fixing, and others are not.
It looks like a Waterford 1100. Downtube has crumpling, front end impact. Fork seems straight. Not sure if it'd be worth fixing.
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Old 12-18-14, 03:05 PM
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Those lug points look really short. In fact, they look too short to provide the necessary surface area for a good joint. Are you sure it's a Waterford frame?
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Old 12-18-14, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper
Those lug points look really short. In fact, they look too short to provide the necessary surface area for a good joint. Are you sure it's a Waterford frame?
Most positive. I can't say it's a 1100 but it's definitely a Waterford.
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Old 12-18-14, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloh
Most positive. I can't say it's a 1100 but it's definitely a Waterford.
I see what appears to be a Henry James fork crown… but Waterford? The lugs just don't look attractive enough.
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Old 12-18-14, 07:05 PM
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Does the fork have round blades? From the limited view of the crown, it looks like a track fork (round blades) instead of a road fork with oval blades. If it has round blades and the bike is a road bike, the fork is likely a replacement.
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Old 12-18-14, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
I see what appears to be a Henry James fork crown… but Waterford? The lugs just don't look attractive enough.
Waterford decals all around with Henry James dropouts and fastback seat stay. Looks like a 1100.

Originally Posted by Scooper
Does the fork have round blades? From the limited view of the crown, it looks like a track fork (round blades) instead of a road fork with oval blades. If it has round blades and the bike is a road bike, the fork is likely a replacement.
For is a road fork with oval blades, drilled for brakes, and Henry James dropouts.

I can confime that it has been in a front end collision. Downtube has rippling (toptube seems fine), but this probably caused the lugs to give out and separate. I'm wondering if this would be a worthwhile project to pursue or just trash the frame.
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Old 12-18-14, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloh
I'm wondering if this would be a worthwhile project to pursue or just trash the frame.
To do it right as repechage suggests will probably cost more than the frame is worth if you have a framebuilder repair it. If you want to undertake the project yourself it could be a good learning experience.

Originally Posted by repechage
Now for a practical matter.... Ride or retire? I have become conservative. Retire. A real fix is not economical, you might do it as a learning experience. I would cut the head tube in half, watch the frame spring, then torch off the head lugs and braze in a new head tube, and maybe a new top tube or down tube depending on what the frame tells you after you bisect the head tube.
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Old 12-18-14, 07:35 PM
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poor penetration .

sand blast the whole thing since it has to be repainted any how , and have some one re braze the lug, then re ream, out the head tube .
it will distort some ..
top . (out of focus) already looks like scorched paint. that one was Bad Too?
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Old 12-18-14, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper
Those lug points look really short. In fact, they look too short to provide the necessary surface area for a good joint.
We used these Tange Super Champion lugs on our early 753 frames without problems:

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Old 12-18-14, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloh
...

I can confime that it has been in a front end collision. Downtube has rippling (toptube seems fine), but this probably caused the lugs to give out and separate. I'm wondering if this would be a worthwhile project to pursue or just trash the frame.
That information upfront would have got you to the same result quite a bit faster.
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Old 12-18-14, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
That information upfront would have got you to the same result quite a bit faster.
Posting as I go. Cleaned up and carefully inspected in bright light to feel bulges. That's all.
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