fietsbob

Bunch Of Masi s were Made in California for a while , Names are Commodified now .

Have a Pinarello Cross Frame some surprise when it shipped, Tig joints, rather than lugged but Oh well thats Progress..

rekmeyata

There are lots of great custom builders, to say one is better than another is just nonsense, they're just different so you should select according to which one appeals to your artistic side the best.

Some really good ones in the US are Nobilette, Shamrock, Peter Mooney, Anderson Custom cycles, Curt Goodrich, Cooper cycles, Vanilla, Rodriguez, Ellis, Waterford; just to name a very few of the thousand doing business in the US. Outside the US there are just as many, but my favorite is in the UK named Mercian, not as big of a name as others but because their not they go under the radar and cost less with just as good if not better craftsmanship, also there is Pegoretti, Formigli, Hetchins, Llewellyn, and Teschner.

You can go crazy trying to find one out of a couple thousand builders, so just fine the style of builder you like and go with it.

KonAaron Snake 

I don't think he means which of those people should he buy a current bike from. If he knows enough to include umberto Marnati, he knows these aren't current builders. I think the OP is asking for an opinion on c/v bikes. To me - it depends on your preferences, it also depends on which era from the above named marquees.

As as far as buying current builders, I agree - get what appeals to you, and what's local. A few builders are more experienced, and I think more deserving of renown than some others, but there are plenty of quality guys around.

One factor that I think gets overlooked is the professionalism/responsible business person factor. I want to do business with people that have established reputations and who don't get too lost in the artiste thing. I also would trust experience in sizing and riding - like a Kellogg - more than I'd want an art school grad like some of the current darlings.

repechage

I don't think many are art school grads, more like industrial art dropouts who think they know design.

repechage

Sight unseen, I would take a Carlsbad era Masi over an Italian one.
Commodified… good word to describe the evolution.

KonAaron Snake 

I stand corrected

gomango

Just watch and see how long they remain viable in the market.

I've seen some of my favorite builders take major stumbles, get up/fix their mess and move on.

I've also watched guys that I thought were positioned well and they went away.

Gone without a trace.

KonAaron Snake 

I think the current focus on aesthetics and design has gone too far. Perfectionism is nice, but i do find it odd that the dialogue you hear now rarely includes knowledge on fit and sizing. I think some of that is buyers who want to provide detail in the build. Personally I'd rather work with a kellogg, or Marnati who first and foremost focus on fit and geometry.

iab

You need that?

You don't know what geometry suits you?

Personally I pity the builder if/when I go custom. They will be the whipping boy of this art school graduate.

gomango

You've hit on the truth here.

The first thing a builder should work on is the fit and intended purpose of the bicycle.

What do you want to do with the bicycle is "the" question that should be asked.

I am a big believer in having the builder choose the appropriate tubesets for the rider and the use.

Heck, one of the best local builders even asks the customer to go for a ride. What a fabulous idea, when possible.

Again, we are truly fortunate to have the builders we do in the Twin Cities. I find very little reason to go elsewhere when there is so much seasoned/veteran talent ten minutes from my house.

Aaron, I know you had a very special opportunity to work with Marnati. That build broke the mold for a special "once in a lifetime" chance.

KonAaron Snake 

I think Kellogg knows more about building a frame than I do. When you're buying a frame from a top builder, to me you're buying their frame building knowledge. All of them view things somewhat differently...bb heights, angles, tubes, etc. I am buying his expertise in building his idea of a great frame for my stated purpose and size.

If if you think you know more than Tom Kellogg about how to build a frame, and you think you know exactly how every angle should be, you're brighter than me

gomango

I have a movie running in my head about all of the details I would want included.

There are many things I would leave to a builder's judgement, but at the end of the day I am the customer.

I want what I want.

I have come very close twice in the past year to sending the deposit and I changed my mind.

I'll figure it out eventually and just keep riding in the interim.

Citoyen du Monde

Lets start off by saying that most of these builders have already passed away and therefore there is no possibility that a new one could ever be built today. As best as I know, only Belletti and Marastoni are still alive (however both have long ago hung up their torches). Marastoni is in his 90's and Belletti in his late 70's. Belletti's bikes are known mainly for the risky choice that he took in using TIG when nobody else was doing the same. The paint finish on them is generally not the greatest and the ride is perhaps not always quite as nice as on the other bikes you mention. As has already been mentioned, Freschi and Pogliaghi are closely related. It may be sacrilegious to many but I have never been overly enthusiastic about Pogliaghi. In my eyes his frames never exceeded those of his teacher (for that matter I don't believe they are even as good as his teacher: Brambilla) which to a certain extent means that he was happy to settle with a level of quality. In some ways, Freschi was able to do more than Pogliaghi in furthering his bike designs. Faliero Masi is Faliero Masi and you can't go wrong. Umberto Marnati and his son Daniele (who is still building exceptional bikes today!) make great bikes. They can also be had for a fraction of the price of other lesser bikes. They perhaps don't have much of a reputation but they are top notch. Last of all there is Licinio Marastoni. He built his first frame in the 30's and continued building for over 50 years. He was instrumental in bringing about numerous changes that became accepted practice for all frame builders. I personally think that he is one of the most under-recognized of all the top builders. His frames/bikes are however not that common and it is though to find them, especially if you want one in your size to ride.

iab

There is a distinct difference between building a frame and riding a frame. Kellogg has absolutely no idea what fits me and what I want out of a bike, so in that case, I know much more about the bike than Kellogg.

KonAaron Snake 

As I said, if you think you know more about how to make a frame that you'll like more than Tom Kellogg, you must know a lot more than me

In that case you don't need a frame builder, just welding lessons and some tubes.

Since I lack your genius about frame design, I'll stick to guys who ride, design and build bikes for a living.

iab

How does anyone know what you like?

I average 12-15 hours a week riding. I have ridden many different geometries over the years, all fitting properly. I know which one I liked, which one I didn't like. So please, how does this master builder divine what's best for me?

As for the craft of framebuilding, you are correct, like any other craft, time and experience rules the roost. In a different life, I was an excellent metal worker. With a a few pieces of aluminum sheet, and English wheel and a tig welder, I could reproduce the fender of the classic car of your choice. But without the proper continuing training, that skill has dropped off. I do not want to put in the time to relearn. I also don't want to put in the time to build dozens of bikes.

I would rather ride my bike. Learning from it. Not from some supposed mystic.

fender1

mississippimud

USA home soil builders like : Mark DiNucci--Bruce Gordon--Dave Moulton---Andy Newlands---Tom Ritchey

littlebeetle

Thanks guys for the those great information.
These few brands came by after I have european friend who introduced me and I did
little research on them...lots of heritage. More reading required...

Well, I would want an Italian bike (classic) after all and by having them, it
will be a piece of art (rare one perhaps). Yes, some great builders from the
list would have passed away, however the legacy stays on

I just bought and received a Vitali (Alberto) bike....rare species with lugless (filet brazzed)

@Italuminium
I did a little about Stelbel, TIG welding...awesome bike frame technology
back then
@KonAaron Snake
yes, I am talking about C&V. Perhaps between 70's - early 80's

@Citoyen du Monde
Thank you so much. Well explained!
In the mind of mine, I have shortlisted Marnati, Masi and Marastoni.
If I could find a rare Pogliaghi...I would be happy

Six jours

I thought I was pretty well up on C&V frames - being kind of C&V myself - but I haven't heard of half of the names the OP wrote down. So I haven't got much of an opinion, other than that a Masi or a Pog will really hold their value, once you get bored with them.

Beyond that, I agree with the folks who claim that arguing about famous dead framebuilders is a lot like arguing about which color is best. Once the guy has figured out how to maintain alignment while getting complete joint penetration, it's really all about aesthetics. Some folks like to argue that frame geometry is a kind of magic known only to a few grand wizards, but those folks are easy enough to ignore.

Personally, I think Pogs and Masis (and nearly every other "name" brand of old steel Italian frame) are perfectly competent and attractive frames. None are really "better", in any objective kind of way, than any of the others, so the prospective buyer might as well choose whatever subjective attractions he feels and go with that. (At least until resale value rears its ugly head, in which case we go back to the Pog/Masi paradigm previously mentioned.)

But I also think all those grand old Italian steel frames pale in comparison to the top American frames of right now, most of the names of which have already appeared in this thread. I personally put Weigle at the very top of the heap, as the single best framebuilder who has ever lived. But of course, blue is also the vey best color in the whole world...

Scooper

Yep. Not to disparage the Italian masters, but the current crop of really talented American builders make bikes as close to perfection as any.

rekmeyata

That's weird, I didn't know that only Italian bike builders were the only ones that were artistic, the likes of American builders like Albert Eisentraut, Michael Celmins, Richard Sachs Lennard Zinn, Chris Chance, Roland DellaSanta, Peter Mooney, Dave Moulton, Mark DiNucci (wow!), David Tesch, I guess all these guys and others I can't name were just cheap imitations of the Italian "masters". I could go into the UK, Japan, and Spain builders too, but they too were just bicycle Italian art counterfeiters.

KonAaron Snake 

I'm not seeing where he disparaged any other builders or nationalities.

There are a lot of excellent US builders, and we're lucky to have such variety. There were also quite a few Italians who made some wonderful bikes - and helped develop and chart the evolution of the road bike. Some of those guys are on his list. The OP seems like a good sort to me, and he picked some very fine builders.

The standards and materials are just different now. IC lugs, OS tubes, better paint, different materials. There's still a beauty to the low volume production Italians.

Six jours

I don't get how Rekmeyata can be so ridiculous on the helmet thread but make so much sense here.

I will point out, though, that while the Japanese were indeed just "copying" the French rando guys of the 50s and 60s, no French builder ever lived who could equal the workmanship of the best Japanese frames of the style. I'm as impressed by Herse and Singer as anyone, but they just don't stand up to the copies produced by outfits like Toei - and off the top of my head, I can't think of any C&V Italian frames that are as good.

koffee brown

True dat. Pegoretti?