The Golden Boy 

Do you have a "grail?"

zazenzach

I guess by that definition no, i do not want a grail bike.

i tend to covet the higher end more mass produced stuff of the 70's and 80's. Something like a Chicago Paramount. When I find one in good shape with original paint and at a reasonable price, I will be a very happy boy.

repechage

'Golden Boy, the Herse is interesting. It is close to my size too, I lstudied it a while ago. Top tube is very close, seat tube is a bit off but fitted with a leather saddle will look good still. This bike is darn close to nirvana by specification, black, chrome ( quite a bit of it actually ). Late in the hand painted graphics period... There is something about this one that just does not speak to me though, besides the price which I think is beyond the market. That is arguable, but the bike has been on offer for a time and not sold, so maybe there is a consensus on that for now.

There was a bit larger one on offer a bit ago, a bit cosmetically challenged. Did not sell. So it goes. I liked that one a bit more save for the condition of the chrome.

I have answered my itch for a number of bikes I wanted, a few went beyond my expectation, a few were less than. Just how it is. Always helps if you can pay less than current market, that is infrequent now for the top shelf stuff.

zazenzach

Agreed.

Grail is defined as something that is pursued or sought after. People seek different things in life. Just as individuals have different career/life goals, we also have different ideals of the perfect bike. Im sure many roadies out there would balk at the idea of having an old steel bike as a grail.

repechage

You get two of those three wishes.

Wildwood 

Post #8 .
I consider the DeRosa with Campy CdA 7sp indexed & Merckx with Campy CdA 6sp friction grail-ish. Funny, I ride the AD more than any other bicycle - so I put that frame in there as well (but the components are NOT top of line; alas, one of them has to be the rain bike with fenders). They each fulfill my fantasy ride. On the AD, the tubular wheelset - Mavic GEL280 + GL330 rims on Record hubs - might have something to do with it.

Wheels & tires can make a good frame feel dramatically better.
In 2004, I tested a Merlin Extralight, it was superior to anything I had ridden to that point - swapping out the carbon tubular wheelset, brought it back to the level of my Calfee. The Calfee is a custom so it fits perfectly and rides gloriously but since anyone can go by a similar bike brand new, it's not grail for me.

zazenzach

i know, that's the problem

LazyLegs

I'm new to the term 'Grail', so when I read it first it conjured up the idea of something like I posted of earlier, from the thread it seems for most it just means something like 'Dream Bike', or maybe even a lower standard than that. In usage a word means what it has become to mean and over time words that were once superlatives can come to be associated with everyday non-superlative events or items. When someone describes something as 'Awesome' or 'Hilarious', would it really be enough to get you to look up from reading the weather forecast these days, and it seems the same is true of 'Grail Bike', it just seems to mean, for most, a bike they would like to have in future or wanted and have acquired. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but if you see the term 'Grail Bike' in a thread subject aren't you more likely to skip over it if you think it's going to be a few pics of a Concorde Astore with a disk brake conversion or some equally personal definition of the term.

Barrettscv 

I separate bikes into five groups;

1) Mass market
2) Distinctive (Cyclocross, Mixte, Touring, some Mountain bikes..., etc)
3) Iconic (top of the line from a volume builder)
4) Exotic from a master builder (handmade in smaller production volumes of very high quality)
5) Historically significant

The grail bike, for most collectors, are limited to the historic category in most cases. It might extend to the Iconic or Exotic category, if the bike is a near perfect example.

My respect for historic bikes keeps me from owning one. They are an owners expression of his knowledge and perseverance. It's the fulfillment of an adventure. It's a trophy. To what extent should a grail bike be preserved for prosperity? Can a grail bike be a bike that is kept in regular use?

My bikes are century-ride ready and all have been modified from factory stock. These bikes are far more comfortable and have divetrains and wheels that are improvements over what was originally installed back in the day. My theory of vintage bike utility is that wear items should be updated to new or new-old-stock. Items like tires, rims, spokes, cog-sets, and even cranksets can and should be replaced, and using newer replacements should be considered.

Other items are more of a gray area, including derailleurs, shifters and hubs. I want my bikes to be an excellent riding experience. That excludes most vintage bikes with 100% original divetrains and wheelsets.

bradtx

TGB, I've never had a grail bike that I just had to have, I did have to search for years for a NOS pair of white hooded 600 brake levers I wanted.

Brad

rootboy 

Never think about it, honestly.

But, would I like a 1967 Cinelli? Damned right I would.

Ain't gonna lose sleep over not having one, though.

Road Fan

As I understand it, good joining is supposed to attach the two tubes directly to each other. The purpose of the lug is to guide the brazing material (I'm not saying this very well), help with the proper distribution of heat, and of course, an opportunity for branding and decoration. The lug is not supposed to hold the frame tubes together.

If the miters are such that the tubes do not touch or are not close enough, the quality of the joint should not be at its best.

iab

I see a difference between a grail and a bike of historical significance. Bartali's or Coppi's Giro/Tour/Worlds/etc winning bikes should be in museums so all people can enjoy them. Call me a communist, I think I shouldn't own it, everyone should.

Here's the thing though, the manufacturers of those bikes made more than one.

I happen to own a bike that is the exact same make and model of Bartali's first team bike. Looks to be the same size too. I don't know if it falls under your definition of grail, but it certainly falls under my definition.

I ride it all the time. If a part fails, I have put in a lot of time, money, relationship building, to replace that part. Exactly as Bartali would have done if a part failed for him. Except in his case, he was looking for "modern" replacements and the stuff I need is 80 years old. The herd has thinned in that amount of time.

As for the avatar, I think the term hero is way too strong of a word. I like his bikes. He was a strong racer. And I think the caricature is cool looking.

AS for Wright architecture, we are in full agreement that it is beautiful. But flat roofs leak. Extreme cantilevers crack. Corner windows leak. Crappy concrete leaks. His furniture is ergonomically incorrect. The lack of basement and attics sucks. I certainly will give him the open floor plan. Bottom line, beautiful to look at, wonderful to stay in one for the weekend (I stayed once at the Seth Peterson house), but in no doubt, a maintenance nightmare.

likebike23

I have given the concept of the "grail bike" some thought and come to find that we are all wrong. There is, and can be only one grail bike.

dedhed

While beautiful with fine craftsmanship, Wright houses are notorious maintenance nightmare money pits.

repechage

Wright should have concentrated on building in the Southwest.
Walls of glass in a Michigan winter? Flat roofs as iab mentioned?
He was a capable draftsman and a great stylist.

gomango

It's all fun and games till the heating bill arrives.

Road Fan

I think I've had several bikes I would say are grail bikes. As a kid, great Italian bikes like Fiorelli, Cinelli, Pogliaghi, and others were beginning to come to Chicago. I lusted for one all through high school and university, then discovered motorcycles, had my nice little Rossignoli stolen, and got a really busy engineering job, so bikes were left behind. When I returned to cycling, I bought a Trek and was not totally happy with the ride. Later I found a Masi for sale locally, and I knew that brand should be excellent. It was a great ride, everything I wanted and still want, but I've finally decided it's too small. Now married, I could not convince Mrs. Road Fan to take it over (hated and still can't deal with friction!), and bought her a used Mondonico about 1986. It was still friction, so she would not ride it. After a while I warmed up to how it rides (better fit for me than the Masi), and now it is one of my first choices.

So: one grail is a great ride, but not a great fit. Another grail is a great ride, and really has no issues, especially with modern Campy 10x3 (yeah, I'm older!).

I wanted a bike for more of a commuting/touring use, and ideally it would have been an International. Instead I found a Woodrup that carried me very well on a series of metric centuries and shorter rides. Like a fool I sold it.

Then there was the need to build a "rando" bike - flexy tubing, great pedaling, room for fenders and wide tires, carries a front bag well. I found a Terraferma frame and built it, but the size was not a compromise too small but a compromise too big. I also think the standard-diameter 0.4 mm tubing is not a good choice for me (surprised, I think I'd have loved a 753 bike BITD), and perhaps the Hetres are not either. In this case what should have been a great ride worth of the term "grail" is just a disappointment.

I found an opportunity for another Mondonico with ELOS tubing, that was Columbus top set in its day. I bought it, and it is a great fit, the pinnacle of its technology, and a fantastic ride. My new job has kept me off of bikes for most of the past year.

So one grail (Mondonico I) has been my main go-to. Next go-to has been my old never appreciated Trek 610, which has proven to be a great mule for experiments in geometry, drivetrain, brake conversions, saddles, et cetera. Best grail is the least go-to (Mondinico II), because it is waiting for my availability and for a good Campy triple to come onto my horizon, to make it suitable for me on my local roads. It's also waiting for the new computer to get installed, the elves have not done that yet.

So grails can be great bikes and disappointments, and can lead to modifications, fix-ups, and other complications.

Just like all other bicycles!

Now available: 1983 Trek 620 f/f, 1980 Masi Gran Criterium (as original as I received it), 1970-ish blue Peugeot UO-8 f/f, Terraferma Super Corsa 650 f/f, 1972 Raleigh Super Course f/f.

Waiting for fixes: 2005 Mondonico ELOS, 1970 UO-8, 1967 Peugeot PX-10x (not sure the actual version)

Potential future wants: Boulder All-Road or Brevet, PX-10 frame that does not need full de-rusting/refinishing, '70s to early '80s US Masi GC frame in correct size.

The grail hunt is still alive!

Road Fan

Should be a photo of The Highlander.

crank_addict

Yes I REALLY would want to 'experience' a 'grail' bike. I repeat, 'experience' and share it. Afterall, we're just temporary keepers. The only problem is, no single grail exist and rather too many extraordinary that I'd want to experience. Furthermore, unobtainable.

I can relate to LazyLegs what defines but would go much deeper or more meaningful. It might be about a prior owner history or owned by a legendary rider. It may or may not be special to some or not even in the best of condition. It could even be a low end but rare model, raced at an early Tdf or Giro, passed through others hands who felt the same passion and appreciation. It may not even be a racer but could also be something like an original hand built by Alex Singer or Rene Herse. Some sort of rare record holding tandem from the 1930's. Or something made by Paul de Vivie, never restored. Same for an unusual Masi, Cinelli, De Rosa. Ottavio Bottechia's Automoto from the 1920's, a 50's era Stella ridden by Bobet. Or a vintage Legnano, Frejus equipped with some hand made by Tullio Campagnolo 'Cambio Corsa' parts graced with patina.

Being sincere here, if the dizzy dream came true, had stupid money, tripped through the doors of a shed and discovered an available for sale 65 Ferrari 250LM, I would further rent out Circuit LaSarthe and drive it like it was meant. Same with the above bikes, would be too tempting not to ride.
Snap, wake up, I need a sniff of coffee!

Last ride 76 

I have a bike I don't think I should ride. I don't even feel like the right person to own it. An Olmo from the 70's with less than 100 miles on it. It was their display
bike at the NY International Bike Show. But to me, it's not a grail bike.

(Edit:after reading Barretscv, an "historic bike" might describe it better).

The well ridden, badly repainted (in Celeste green, no less) 1972-73 Colnago that I got for less than 500 bucks is a "grail" bike for me. Originally, I was going to repaint, put proper decals and as close to NOS parts as I had on it immediately. But I didn't have the time, was working too much. So all I did when I got it home was spend a night cleaning and wrenching. Now I find myself laying a blanket over the stuff in the back of my truck, taking the bike with me, then going for a quick spin at lunch or right after work. ( I worked in the catskill mts. for a while this year).

As it is, I get to enjoy riding it, feel cool doing it, and not freak out if I find myself on a crappy bit of road. If I restore it and polish up the shiny bits like I'm doing to my old Ron Cooper, I don't think I would be able to just hop on and hop off whenever i want, and put it away 'till next time. But make no mistake, I've wanted one ever since seeing one at Green Mountain Schwinn back in 75.I just never realized I was going to get such a kick out of riding around on it unrestored.

Now I never figured I would ever get my hands on an original drillium Molteni orange De Rosa (?) like Eddy is riding in the famous poster. Though I do have the adidas shoes from that poster, (not his, mine, from BITD). Wish they still fit, lol. If I ever got my hands on one of those... to me that's not a Grail bike,
That is the Alpha and the Omega.

I'm happy with my bikes (or the potential I see in them), now if I can just get back to working on them. so they are ready for Spring!

Woohoo, the days are getting longer!

KonAaron Snake 

I don't really subscribe to the "This is the one bike I MUST have above all others" mindset, but I appreciate the effort and dedication some spend on the hunt. There are a lot of bikes I'd like to own/ride...some are higher on my desired list than others. My big check box was hit after getting a Merlin...that was the bike I most dreamed about owning when I was of that age. A De Rosa 35th had similar standing for me. After hanging out here for so long, the stuff I'd most be most interested in now would be more likely older.

A few random thoughts:

The use of Grail regarding bicycles is more about the search than the bike. It's more treating a bike as though it is the Grail. You can go see a wright brothers bicycle at the museum, so obviously it's not a Grail like object. Even the rarest and most desired bikes do come up for sale - we've all seen Rene Herse bicycles for sale.

I do think the word Grail gets watered down somewhat when people use it to describe relatively easy to purchase production bikes. To me an 80s De Rosa isn't a Grail bike because there are lots out there...unless there's something unique about that De Rosa. You can buy an 80s SLX de rosa at any point on eBay. The search for a 60s De Rosa would be more worthy of that word usage.

KonAaron Snake 

I have the same view of works of great significance. At some point certain things should be the property of humanity as a whole, not one old rich dude. There are certain things that stand as a testament to an entire culture, and they have multiple stakeholders. When that line is crossed is obviously quite debatable.

A local synagogue was built by Wright - Temple Beth Shalom - and there have been a lot of problems over the years. If memory serves, there were even leaks that affected the Torah. Beautiful building from outside.

dddd

I'm in this camp, since I am not wanting to operate a museum or to accumulate a large portion of my net-asset-value in old vehicles of any type.

A grail bike can make a nice, tidy display as compared to a vintage car or motorcycle, for what that's worth.

But the best bikes that I've bought as under-priced investment opportunities mostly sat unused.

I'm much happier to experiment with gas-pipe and well-beaten bikes that cause little concern for their over-the-road cash value. Thus if a bike gets stolen around here it probably won't be mine. It might help even further that even though I am only 5'9" tall, I ride pretty huge frames whose market cost is usually held in check by their size, and which might not even be rideable by any potential thief when I'm dashing into a store for some grub or a beverage.

A bike like this, even un-restored, is very much a "grail" sort of heavily-racing-biased bike for me, yet sold for only $180 because of a badly cracked driveside Super Record crankarm, beaten paint and very poorly-maintained condition. I fitted an "SR" brand approximation of the broken Campy crankset, and even used the same "D-H" UN-71 Shimano 115mm cartridge bb it came with, then fitted a new 9-speed chain (replacing oh-so-clunky Sedisport) and new saddle ($6.99 Bell brand sold at Ross Clothing).
Any bike that I invest the time and a few dollars into to get well-prepped and cleaned up for the road would still be a sad loss if stolen or wrecked, and in the end I usually feel like the bike I'm riding on (and tinkering with) is my grail bike.

corwin1968

For me, a grail bike is a personal thing based on my own needs and wants and for me, it's simply a frameset with headset and handlebars.

This frameset/headset/handlebar, in this color, in this condition, in a 22" size, at a reasonable price and local to me, is my grail bike.