Campy Bottom Bracket question
#1
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Thread Starter
Campy Bottom Bracket question
I'm looking for a BB for my Italian thread Tommasini. I have a set of 1984 double chain ring Record cranks. The prices for Record non-cartridge brackets on eBay are astonishing.
After sifting through reams of Internet data on taper types, spindle lengths, spindle offset (that really makes my brain hurt), I've decided the following is what I need:
Shimano UN 55 70 x 115 mm JIS taper
There is a thread on this forum that chastised a guy for using JIS, maintaining that Campy is ISO, but I think the reference was for post ~ 1990 cranks. BTW I know Phil Wood makes excellent bottom brackets but I ride a max of 3000 miles/year split among 4, soon 5 bikes, so good performance is important but longevity isn't so much.
Good choice? Discuss. And thank you.
After sifting through reams of Internet data on taper types, spindle lengths, spindle offset (that really makes my brain hurt), I've decided the following is what I need:
Shimano UN 55 70 x 115 mm JIS taper
There is a thread on this forum that chastised a guy for using JIS, maintaining that Campy is ISO, but I think the reference was for post ~ 1990 cranks. BTW I know Phil Wood makes excellent bottom brackets but I ride a max of 3000 miles/year split among 4, soon 5 bikes, so good performance is important but longevity isn't so much.
Good choice? Discuss. And thank you.
#3
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I thought all CampI cranks were still ISO. CampI never made a cartridge BB for the NR/SR series cranks.
For the cost involved I would just buy the Phil and be done with since you could have it in a week V searching ebay for months looking for a good deal on a CampI in good shape.
A good benefit of the Phil is you can always just change cups and put it in an English frame.
If you go with the Phil I'll lend you my tools for the round trip postage, 2 phil tools and 22mm 3/8 drive socket.
For the cost involved I would just buy the Phil and be done with since you could have it in a week V searching ebay for months looking for a good deal on a CampI in good shape.
A good benefit of the Phil is you can always just change cups and put it in an English frame.
If you go with the Phil I'll lend you my tools for the round trip postage, 2 phil tools and 22mm 3/8 drive socket.
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#4
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Phil's recommended BBs for old (pre'94) Campy are JIS. If they recommend it, it's good enough for me. Only '94 and later Campy are ISO, anyway
#5
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I assume you are speaking of the OP's idea of a Shimano UN 55 70 x 115 mm JIS taper. Why are you saying no? I can think of a bunch of reasons pro and con, but I'd like to hear your reasoning. FWIW, I have had good luck with UN54 and UN55 on various bikes.
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Wow, just went through this last night. I am building more of a show bike, ( room hanger ) than rider. I had a nice Campy Strada crank that no matter what spindle I used, I even went up to a 68X120, it was too close for my nerves. I pit a JIS spindle in that I took out of an old Japanese frame Sugino.. It works smooth as silk, mated to a English DA set of BB cups. Problem solved. Th only issue, and thats only because I didn't want to mar the Campy black anodized crank was I had to tighten the 14mm screw on bolts without the washers inside the threaded arms. I know I could have pushed harder and caught the threads, but again, didn't need to because its not a rider. JIS did match up very very well to the Dura Ace. I don't know how it would work with Campy but if I was forced to bet I would say yes. Just rolling the JIS through the Campy BB I have, again just hands pushing a spindle around BB bearings it felt smooth as silk. There are a lot of dynamics that come into play with BB swapping, cranks, etc etc. When I worked in the shop I could just open a draw that had 50 of them and play around til I had the right one. Without that benefit now at home, whatever you order, if it was me, I would go cautiously long on the spindle, and adjust the derailleur accordingly. good luck
Last edited by Katiesmalls; 01-22-15 at 07:38 PM.
#7
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this always seems a challenge....I had it with 84 ofmega cranks which are campy clones
here is the sheldon link Square Taper Bottom Bracket Interchangeability you should read it all
and select quotes
"If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length.
Conversely, if you install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length.
Theoretically, ISO cranks should only be used on ISO spindles, and J.I.S. cranks only on J.I.S. spindles.
In practice, you can very often get away with mixing these sizes, as long as you select a spindle length that gives the desired chainline. "
so you have to think about spindle length and I think (but would not bet money on it) that the 84 record still used the assymetric spindle set up
I personally was not comfortable, doing the iso ofmega on a JIS taper.....I just did not like the reduced amount of spindle crank interface ( i am a clyde) I got lucky and sourced an ofmega bb from Bianchigirll.....
so as always ymmv and you get to make your own decision...hope this helps
here is the sheldon link Square Taper Bottom Bracket Interchangeability you should read it all
and select quotes
"If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length.
Conversely, if you install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length.
Theoretically, ISO cranks should only be used on ISO spindles, and J.I.S. cranks only on J.I.S. spindles.
In practice, you can very often get away with mixing these sizes, as long as you select a spindle length that gives the desired chainline. "
so you have to think about spindle length and I think (but would not bet money on it) that the 84 record still used the assymetric spindle set up
I personally was not comfortable, doing the iso ofmega on a JIS taper.....I just did not like the reduced amount of spindle crank interface ( i am a clyde) I got lucky and sourced an ofmega bb from Bianchigirll.....
so as always ymmv and you get to make your own decision...hope this helps
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I'm looking for a BB for my Italian thread Tommasini. I have a set of 1984 double chain ring Record cranks. The prices for Record non-cartridge brackets on eBay are astonishing.
After sifting through reams of Internet data on taper types, spindle lengths, spindle offset (that really makes my brain hurt), I've decided the following is what I need:
Shimano UN 55 70 x 115 mm JIS taper
There is a thread on this forum that chastised a guy for using JIS, maintaining that Campy is ISO, but I think the reference was for post ~ 1990 cranks. BTW I know Phil Wood makes excellent bottom brackets but I ride a max of 3000 miles/year split among 4, soon 5 bikes, so good performance is important but longevity isn't so much.
Good choice? Discuss. And thank you.
After sifting through reams of Internet data on taper types, spindle lengths, spindle offset (that really makes my brain hurt), I've decided the following is what I need:
Shimano UN 55 70 x 115 mm JIS taper
There is a thread on this forum that chastised a guy for using JIS, maintaining that Campy is ISO, but I think the reference was for post ~ 1990 cranks. BTW I know Phil Wood makes excellent bottom brackets but I ride a max of 3000 miles/year split among 4, soon 5 bikes, so good performance is important but longevity isn't so much.
Good choice? Discuss. And thank you.
#9
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Squirtdad was right, there was a bit of offset to those Nuovo-era spindles.
Doing the math, from the chart we see the 70-SS (double) spindle was 113mm long and the driveside end extends 2mm longer than the other end.
This is equivalent to a 113mm symmetric spindle installed with a 1mm spacer under the fixed cup.
One benefit of most cartridge bb's is that you can add several mm of spacer under the fixed cup flange without losing the ability to fully tighten an adjustable cup lockring. So erring on the short side isn't usually a serious problem unless the spindle were perhaps at least 6mm too short.
I've measured many, many tapers directly, and encourage others to do similarly. Even a "locked" adjustable wrench is sufficient to confirm the "effective length difference" between any two tapers, as the wrench or caliper can be locked to a fixed dimension, and the spindles can be inserted in the jaws with resulting insertion depth (opposite of "effective length per side") then measured directly with a ruler.
So let me say that between JIS and pre-cartridge (pre-ISO) Campagnolo spindles, that there will be at most 2mm per side difference in effective spindle length, not 4.5mm (per side) as posted by one or more popular sources. Again, this is easy enough for anyone to check for themselves, as long as they have any two spindles/bb's present to compare with one another.
When a Campagnolo cartridge bb is being compared to any JIS spindle, it's ISO tapers will show a bit larger of a difference in insertion depth, perhaps as much as 3mm more insertion depth on each end (thus perhaps as much as 6mm "shorter" than JIS relative to it's actual overall length).
Getting back to "the math", the safest bet for replacing the Nuovo Record 113mm spindle with JIS should be a 110mm symmetric cartridge, whose "effective length" will be equivalent to about a symmetric 114mm in a Campy taper, and whose offset can be adjusted up to several mm using cup spacers if (and only if) needed.
Using a spindle on the long side of the original spec, otoh, is not reversible except by substituting a shorter bottom bracket, whereas a cartridge spindle that's even several mm too short is easily corrected using a cup spacer.
Doing the math, from the chart we see the 70-SS (double) spindle was 113mm long and the driveside end extends 2mm longer than the other end.
This is equivalent to a 113mm symmetric spindle installed with a 1mm spacer under the fixed cup.
One benefit of most cartridge bb's is that you can add several mm of spacer under the fixed cup flange without losing the ability to fully tighten an adjustable cup lockring. So erring on the short side isn't usually a serious problem unless the spindle were perhaps at least 6mm too short.
I've measured many, many tapers directly, and encourage others to do similarly. Even a "locked" adjustable wrench is sufficient to confirm the "effective length difference" between any two tapers, as the wrench or caliper can be locked to a fixed dimension, and the spindles can be inserted in the jaws with resulting insertion depth (opposite of "effective length per side") then measured directly with a ruler.
So let me say that between JIS and pre-cartridge (pre-ISO) Campagnolo spindles, that there will be at most 2mm per side difference in effective spindle length, not 4.5mm (per side) as posted by one or more popular sources. Again, this is easy enough for anyone to check for themselves, as long as they have any two spindles/bb's present to compare with one another.
When a Campagnolo cartridge bb is being compared to any JIS spindle, it's ISO tapers will show a bit larger of a difference in insertion depth, perhaps as much as 3mm more insertion depth on each end (thus perhaps as much as 6mm "shorter" than JIS relative to it's actual overall length).
Getting back to "the math", the safest bet for replacing the Nuovo Record 113mm spindle with JIS should be a 110mm symmetric cartridge, whose "effective length" will be equivalent to about a symmetric 114mm in a Campy taper, and whose offset can be adjusted up to several mm using cup spacers if (and only if) needed.
Using a spindle on the long side of the original spec, otoh, is not reversible except by substituting a shorter bottom bracket, whereas a cartridge spindle that's even several mm too short is easily corrected using a cup spacer.
Last edited by dddd; 01-22-15 at 09:53 PM.
#10
Banned.
Because that is not the proper BB for a 1984 Campagnolo Record crankset.
#11
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Have you considered a Veloce or other lesser Campag. model? That's what I use with ISO Nervar Star cranks on my 1959 Capo. (My frame has ISO BB threading, which is typical but not universal in Austria, but you should be able to find an Italian-threaded BB.)
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#12
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What price(s) do you consider astonishing? What price range would you consider acceptable? $75?
Note also that asking/BIN prices are not always realistic. Do an "advanced search" and click on the sold listings box to get a more accurate picture of the going rate for an item. Some of the NOS items certainly command a premium.
Note also that asking/BIN prices are not always realistic. Do an "advanced search" and click on the sold listings box to get a more accurate picture of the going rate for an item. Some of the NOS items certainly command a premium.
#13
Senior Member
That chart is for the pre-CPSC cranks. Post (which the OP's 1984 crank would be) are +1mm on the NDS and +1.5mm on the DS, so the correct 70-SS spindle for thick cups (Nuovo Record) would be 115.5mm long.
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MA's chart is one of the best I've seen, but his note above is worth repeating. Those measurements (113mm spindle for Record double cranks) are for 120 OLD rear wheels. If this mid-80s Tomasini is equipped with a 126mm rear wheel, my understanding is that a 115mm spindle is correct. ISO taper.
Last edited by gaucho777; 01-22-15 at 11:40 PM.
#15
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Sutherland's chart is probably the best, though this one is good as well. Chart 4 for Nuovo Record, thick cup. Charts 1 and 3 would work as well, thin cup.
ebay has some at not too bad of price.
VGC Vintage Campagnolo Italian Threaded Bottom Bracket 36 x 24F 116 mm ISO 70 SS | eBay
Vintage Campagnolo Super Record Bottom Bracket Campy 115mm VGC | eBay
Some others as well, getting into too much $$$, particularly shipped.
This one, though not Campy, would be nice: Edco Comp BB Bottom Bracket 116 Ital Campagnolo Record from '80 Masi | eBay
ebay has some at not too bad of price.
VGC Vintage Campagnolo Italian Threaded Bottom Bracket 36 x 24F 116 mm ISO 70 SS | eBay
Vintage Campagnolo Super Record Bottom Bracket Campy 115mm VGC | eBay
Some others as well, getting into too much $$$, particularly shipped.
This one, though not Campy, would be nice: Edco Comp BB Bottom Bracket 116 Ital Campagnolo Record from '80 Masi | eBay
#16
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Go on ebay and type in italian bottom bracket double....... That should isolate the bottom brackets that will work on the tommasini. I recently got a nos Croce' duenae or however it's spelled of the bay for right at 90 bucks, campy smooth and worked well with the super record stuff I put on my 74 professional.
#17
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And, since it's a post-CPSC crank that the OP apparently has, I'll revise my JIS suggestion of a 110mm symmetric cartridge bb to a 113mm symmetric cartridge bb, since it will take an extra 3mm in overall spindle length to add in the 1.5mm extra chainline offset needed by the post-CPSC crankarms and front derailer.
Elsewise, the OP would have likely needed a 2mm fixed-cup spacer (which is no problem at all except that it might be good to know ahead of time).
#20
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Thread Starter
Thank you all for your considered replies. Michael Angelo, the chart is particularly helpful. Pars, shhh, I'm high bidder on one of those brackets. For now I will be patient and try to find the right Record BB. I do like the convenience of a cartridge bracket though. I've never paid more than $50 for Campy cartridge brackets over many years of wrenching on my 10 speed groups, so have a hard time crossing that threshold for a pretty common 30 year old bearing.
#21
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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I challenge you or anyone else to be able to see what spindle I have on my Masi without taking it apart. If I'm riding I'd say the same about the bearing cups and crank bolts. Unless you (generic) are building a museum piece all that matters is that it works.
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#22
Banned.
You are, of course, correct. I do know that an incorrect BB will not allow as precise a shift up front, no matter how you set the limit screws. For some riding styles, it probably won't matter. Do whatever you (or anyone) would please to do. There is a correct bottom bracket for every chainset, though. They aren't that expensive, compared to modern. A modern Record sealed BB will run you over $100, if you can find someone who still has any in stock. A Chorus is $70, at best.
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Actually, the correct Campy spindle for that crank is machined and finished in a way that is noticeably different from Phil or Shimano. A "serious" enthusiast can tell the difference right away.
Of course, the OP is correct about what works vs. what is "correct". Back when I was making those decisions for myself I realized that good quality aftermarket stuff was essentially as expensive as the "proper" Campy stuff so went ahead with the Campy. I personally think substituting some POS Shimano cartridge unit will offend the gods, but hey, it's not my bike.
Of course, the OP is correct about what works vs. what is "correct". Back when I was making those decisions for myself I realized that good quality aftermarket stuff was essentially as expensive as the "proper" Campy stuff so went ahead with the Campy. I personally think substituting some POS Shimano cartridge unit will offend the gods, but hey, it's not my bike.
#24
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Actually, the correct Campy spindle for that crank is machined and finished in a way that is noticeably different from Phil or Shimano. A "serious" enthusiast can tell the difference right away.
Of course, the OP is correct about what works vs. what is "correct". Back when I was making those decisions for myself I realized that good quality aftermarket stuff was essentially as expensive as the "proper" Campy stuff so went ahead with the Campy. I personally think substituting some POS Shimano cartridge unit will offend the gods, but hey, it's not my bike.
Of course, the OP is correct about what works vs. what is "correct". Back when I was making those decisions for myself I realized that good quality aftermarket stuff was essentially as expensive as the "proper" Campy stuff so went ahead with the Campy. I personally think substituting some POS Shimano cartridge unit will offend the gods, but hey, it's not my bike.
Lots of today's cartridges have only 16mm spindles in an attempt to get a slightly more-robust bearing inside of the shell, but Shimano machines the races directly into the thick, steel shell, and onto the spindle itself, in order to achieve the greatest lifespan possible in a disposable cartridge.
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I've used these, worked out great for me...and they're cheap.
wiggle.com | Tifosi Campagnolo Fit Bottom Bracket | Bottom Brackets
wiggle.com | Tifosi Campagnolo Fit Bottom Bracket | Bottom Brackets