Opinion about derailleurs
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Opinion about derailleurs
hi guys,
I am new in the bike hobby (around three years). It is funny to buy/fix/sell a bike.
I sold in the last two years all kind: coaster brakes, 3, 5, 10... speed, comfort, road/touring, bmx etc.
This year I want to focus more on the touring/road bikes.
I need help to make an evaluation of a bike. I know about frames, but almost nothing about derailleurs.
Is anywhere on-line a classification of these parts, like quality? Or maybe some of you can help me to do this.
I am interested in a classification on brand: Shimano, Suntour, Campanolo, etc., then in quality equivalence between different brands.
I know there are a lot of models, but I am interested more in parts before 1990.
Hope I will get help from you
Thanks, Marius
I am new in the bike hobby (around three years). It is funny to buy/fix/sell a bike.
I sold in the last two years all kind: coaster brakes, 3, 5, 10... speed, comfort, road/touring, bmx etc.
This year I want to focus more on the touring/road bikes.
I need help to make an evaluation of a bike. I know about frames, but almost nothing about derailleurs.
Is anywhere on-line a classification of these parts, like quality? Or maybe some of you can help me to do this.
I am interested in a classification on brand: Shimano, Suntour, Campanolo, etc., then in quality equivalence between different brands.
I know there are a lot of models, but I am interested more in parts before 1990.
Hope I will get help from you
Thanks, Marius
__________________
1992 Torelli Nitro Express; 1972 Claud Butler.
1992 Torelli Nitro Express; 1972 Claud Butler.
#2
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No brand made only good derailleurs, or only bad derailleurs.
Google will get you the hierarchy of both Suntour and Shimano. The early low end stuff was heavy, steel, kind of ugly IMHO, but still functional.
Google will get you the hierarchy of both Suntour and Shimano. The early low end stuff was heavy, steel, kind of ugly IMHO, but still functional.
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Wow, there is a lot to say. In general you can expect that the higher-priced market a bike was intended for the better its derailleurs would be. But higher-priced doesn't necessarily means a better choice.
1. What gear range can it handle and what is the largest cog it can handle? Some of this can be found on VeloBase.com and disraeligears.co.uk.
2. Is it slant-parallelogram rear? That's a feature Suntour invented and patented around 1966, IIRC. When their patent ran out in 1986 everyone else made them too. m (I think those dates are correct.) On a s-p rear the parallelogram is positioned more or less horizontal, parallel to the chain stay. When you view it from behind you can see how the pivot axis is tilted so that the cage moves downward as it moves toward the bike. This lets it track the increasing cog size. It makes a big difference when the cogs cover a large range, less of a difference on a corncob cluster.
3. Is it indexed or purely friction? If indexed then the levers, FW, and RD must all be of the same system, and it works better if the cable housing is incompressible (different from brake housing, and stiffer).
4. Does it require a hanger (a "claw") or does the DO have an integrated hanger? If the DO has a hanger, be aware that their threads are not all alike, and Simplex hangers aren't threaded at all. So you can't always mix'n'match just any ol' thing.
5. Is the frame French? Tubing diameters will be French-standard so that some FD clamps may not fit.
Some good early models are the Suntour VGT-Luxe and Vx. Other great, more expensive models from various manufacturers will be Cyclone, Superbe, DuraAce, various Campy, etc. Most of the later s-p RDs by others are good to. Other members will surely chime in.
1. What gear range can it handle and what is the largest cog it can handle? Some of this can be found on VeloBase.com and disraeligears.co.uk.
2. Is it slant-parallelogram rear? That's a feature Suntour invented and patented around 1966, IIRC. When their patent ran out in 1986 everyone else made them too. m (I think those dates are correct.) On a s-p rear the parallelogram is positioned more or less horizontal, parallel to the chain stay. When you view it from behind you can see how the pivot axis is tilted so that the cage moves downward as it moves toward the bike. This lets it track the increasing cog size. It makes a big difference when the cogs cover a large range, less of a difference on a corncob cluster.
3. Is it indexed or purely friction? If indexed then the levers, FW, and RD must all be of the same system, and it works better if the cable housing is incompressible (different from brake housing, and stiffer).
4. Does it require a hanger (a "claw") or does the DO have an integrated hanger? If the DO has a hanger, be aware that their threads are not all alike, and Simplex hangers aren't threaded at all. So you can't always mix'n'match just any ol' thing.
5. Is the frame French? Tubing diameters will be French-standard so that some FD clamps may not fit.
Some good early models are the Suntour VGT-Luxe and Vx. Other great, more expensive models from various manufacturers will be Cyclone, Superbe, DuraAce, various Campy, etc. Most of the later s-p RDs by others are good to. Other members will surely chime in.
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Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
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I know they made bad and good derailleurs. I am interested which are the good ones, on each brand
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You could start out by defining what you mean by "good". "Good" could mean beautiful, reliable, precise racing shifting, precise wide-range shifting, also index shifting vs friction shifting is another variable.
Last edited by davester; 01-24-15 at 02:49 PM.
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OK
I found on-line that for Suntour the top was VGT luxe, than VX, but there are other opinions: Superbe Pro, Sprint 9000 and GPX. Are they different eras?
I have a Suntour Honor. What is it position?
About Shimano: Dura Ace, Ultegra 600, 105, Tiagra, Sora and another for MTB. What is your opinion?
About Campanolo: Record, Chorus, Daytona (Centaur), Veloce, Mirage and Xenon. What is your opinion?
I found on-line that for Suntour the top was VGT luxe, than VX, but there are other opinions: Superbe Pro, Sprint 9000 and GPX. Are they different eras?
I have a Suntour Honor. What is it position?
About Shimano: Dura Ace, Ultegra 600, 105, Tiagra, Sora and another for MTB. What is your opinion?
About Campanolo: Record, Chorus, Daytona (Centaur), Veloce, Mirage and Xenon. What is your opinion?
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1992 Torelli Nitro Express; 1972 Claud Butler.
1992 Torelli Nitro Express; 1972 Claud Butler.
#7
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OK
I found on-line that for Suntour the top was VGT luxe, than VX, but there are other opinions: Superbe Pro, Sprint 9000 and GPX. Are they different eras?
I have a Suntour Honor. What is it position?
About Shimano: Dura Ace, Ultegra 600, 105, Tiagra, Sora and another for MTB. What is your opinion?
About Campanolo: Record, Chorus, Daytona (Centaur), Veloce, Mirage and Xenon. What is your opinion?
I found on-line that for Suntour the top was VGT luxe, than VX, but there are other opinions: Superbe Pro, Sprint 9000 and GPX. Are they different eras?
I have a Suntour Honor. What is it position?
About Shimano: Dura Ace, Ultegra 600, 105, Tiagra, Sora and another for MTB. What is your opinion?
About Campanolo: Record, Chorus, Daytona (Centaur), Veloce, Mirage and Xenon. What is your opinion?
"Dura-Ace" has been Shimano's top of the line group since the mid-70s, but like SunTour the lower level stuff still works quite nicely, but heavier and less finely finished.
Campagnolo "Record" was their top of the line derailleur in the 60s; the modern "Record" derailleur shares little but the name with the original Record. The old Record was superseded by "Nuovo Record" (aluminum rather than chromed bronze), then "Super Record" (aluminum with titanium bolts). Modern "Record" derailleurs are similar in design to just about every other modern derailleur, with a slant parallelogram borrowed from SunTour and a sprung upper pivot borrowed from Simplex.
#9
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Here are derailleurs I would be ok with putting on a bike. I wouldn't go lower than these. It would depend on the quality of the frame which one I would use.
Shimano: DA, 600/Ultegra, 105
Suntour: Superbe Pro, Sprint, Cyclone
Campy: Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce
Shimano: DA, 600/Ultegra, 105
Suntour: Superbe Pro, Sprint, Cyclone
Campy: Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce
#10
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Up until the late 80's Suntour was the best. Campagnolo was the only manufacturer that had anything as good. After Suntour lost patent protection Shimano quickly cornered the whole market. Suntour went out of business sometime around the end of the 80's.
When shopping vintage bikes I look for all metal components made from chromed steel, polished alloy. No plastic stuff. Wear a glove. Drop chain off chainring. Grab RD & FD. Manually operate through entire range of motion. Make sure springs are still strong.
Old Suntour stuff is usually still working fine on bikes that are decades old.
When shopping vintage bikes I look for all metal components made from chromed steel, polished alloy. No plastic stuff. Wear a glove. Drop chain off chainring. Grab RD & FD. Manually operate through entire range of motion. Make sure springs are still strong.
Old Suntour stuff is usually still working fine on bikes that are decades old.
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Disraeligears is far and away the best derailleur resource I've come across. I also like velobase.com for details.
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Study completed auctions on ebay too. Those will indicate what certain models sold for, and you can average between several sales of one model to get an idea of value. Price doesn't always indicate quality. There's scarcity to consider too. But final selling prices on there will give a pretty good indication.
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That Disraeligears web site is sweet. Thanks!
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Shimano cornered the market with aggressive marketing and a functional indexed shifting system. This not only put an end to SunTour, but to most of the French component industry, and even had Campagnolo on the ropes for several years. Only after Campagnolo ceded the low to mid-end market to Shimano and concentrated on the high end were they able stay solvent.
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All your replys gave me a lot of new knowledge, thanks guys.
What about some info for the brakes?
What about some info for the brakes?
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Campagnolo was racing oriented for a large part of their history, maybe a bit broader now.
Shimano and Suntour made a much wider price point and reasonably functional range of components.
The French manufacturers could also make some decent stuff that most frequently is found on bikes from France.
From a resale point of view, not as well accepted by most.
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