What Difference - C&V Steel, Newer Steel, Modern Custom Steel?
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What Difference - C&V Steel, Newer Steel, Modern Custom Steel?
Something that I have been wondering about.
How much difference, if any, would there be in the ride, feel, weight, etc of (a) a top level 1970s or 1980s C&V production steel frame, (b) a top-level newer production steel frame, and (c) a modern custom steel frame. Each with the best steel of the day.
Presume all have identical components, wheels, tires. For example, suppose Campagnolo 10 speed brifters, with handbuilt wheels on alloy rims, 25 mm tubular tires.
An example of (a) might be my 1978 Raleigh Team Pro 753 or a 1986 (?) Look Bernard Hinault 753 that I am considering.
An example of (b) might be the early 2000's Colnago Master X-Light that I've always wanted to get someday.
An example of (c) might be a Waterford Artisan 953, with the lugs and horizontal top tube.
If you went on a 50 mile ride, a mix of flat road hammering, climbing, descending, town line sprints, and cruising, during which you couldn't or didn't look down at the bike - what would you notice? Anything big? Anything subtle? The relative lightness of your wallet?
How much difference, if any, would there be in the ride, feel, weight, etc of (a) a top level 1970s or 1980s C&V production steel frame, (b) a top-level newer production steel frame, and (c) a modern custom steel frame. Each with the best steel of the day.
Presume all have identical components, wheels, tires. For example, suppose Campagnolo 10 speed brifters, with handbuilt wheels on alloy rims, 25 mm tubular tires.
An example of (a) might be my 1978 Raleigh Team Pro 753 or a 1986 (?) Look Bernard Hinault 753 that I am considering.
An example of (b) might be the early 2000's Colnago Master X-Light that I've always wanted to get someday.
An example of (c) might be a Waterford Artisan 953, with the lugs and horizontal top tube.
If you went on a 50 mile ride, a mix of flat road hammering, climbing, descending, town line sprints, and cruising, during which you couldn't or didn't look down at the bike - what would you notice? Anything big? Anything subtle? The relative lightness of your wallet?
#2
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It depends, if you can feel a pea through twenty mattresses you might notice a difference in feel, if you are more fit then you will feel fresher after 50miles on the same bike that suddenly feels like a bone shaker after the same distance when you are less fit. Saying that, I think I remember something about the Madison Genesis pro team from the UK, who raced on Steel quite recently, having to modify their frames as some of the riders found them uncomfortable as they were too stiff - Too Lazy to look it up and it could have been some sort of marketing hype too - In any case, they've had to concede that steel isn't competitive enough and are now racing Carbon.
Newer steels can be lighter, and stiffer at the top end, you can also get stainless steel for durability.
C&V is an ethereal quality that can only be mimicked, not recreated - A new steel bike is a new bike, if you want performance over 50miles in a new bike, then go with Carbon. if have Carbon anxiety then go with an aluminium frame. Steel if you want it for the aesthetic.
Newer steels can be lighter, and stiffer at the top end, you can also get stainless steel for durability.
C&V is an ethereal quality that can only be mimicked, not recreated - A new steel bike is a new bike, if you want performance over 50miles in a new bike, then go with Carbon. if have Carbon anxiety then go with an aluminium frame. Steel if you want it for the aesthetic.
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With modern stuff the weights are reduced, you have access to OS tubes, air hardening and more shaped tubesets. As for the rest, it's controled by what the builder does with those tubes. You're asking vague, sweeping questions without real answers.
I have never ridden a bike I like more than my custom. I haven't met many people who have gotten a custom that think it isn't preferable for its piose contrasted with a production bike.
I have never ridden a bike I like more than my custom. I haven't met many people who have gotten a custom that think it isn't preferable for its piose contrasted with a production bike.
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Interesting. I found this article.
thewashingmachinepost :: velo club d'ardbeg :: robert millar :: societa colnago
thewashingmachinepost :: velo club d'ardbeg :: robert millar :: societa colnago
#6
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Too many variables to give a coherent answer so I'll just give my impressions of modern double oversize steel tubes. I weigh about 155 lbs and have three handbuilt road bikes built with double oversize tubes. One is True Temper OX Platinum. One is KVA MS2 stainless and the third is Nova Cycle Supply house brand 4130. The True Temper and KVA are almost identical designs. The Nova is a very aggressive crit bike. I can't tell the difference in how the tubes feel. They do seem to be much more comfortable than the carbon bikes all around me when the group hits a rough section of chipseal road. They climb well. I am usually first up the hill among my riding buddies who, like me, are old guys who used to race. I've heard it said that double oversize tubes are too stiff for a rider of my weight. I couldn't disagree more. They are very solid when I stand on the pedals but are still very comfortable. The stainless bike is 17lbs with Campy 10 speed from the early 2000s. The True Temper is 19 lbs with Campy 9 speed from the late ninetys. I haven't weighed the crit bike but it's probably about 19 lbs. hope that helps answer part of your question.
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Modern steel in the hands of a good builder is going to give you all the attributes you like of vintage steel with added stiffness and reduced weight. If you are looking for a vintage steel frame that is more modern in design I would suggest the Raleigh Columbus Zona steel frames...some of they came with a campy group. Do not confuse them with the zonal alloy aluminum.
They are great bikes and can be had with a full group for much less than a single custom frame. I think vintage frames all have different strengths and weakness. For instance my Carlton had a really sweet swept out fork that was springy, it felt supple on bad roads but it was a real noodle when climbing.
Modern steel is without a doubt better than vintage bikes made with SLX,SP etc...but you can find some classic custom frames of the era when SLX/SP was state of the art where the builder used stiffening braze on's on the bottom bracket shell. I think it does make a difference.
If you are going to commit to riding a 753 frame with sew ups, I don't think you will be sorry, that's creme de la creme of vintage performance and art.
I probably would not notice a difference in columbus slx/sp or even 4130. I did notice a difference when riding 753. It was stiffer and really felt lively and compliant if you want to use buzzwords, that's how I'd describe it.
If the wallet allows, buy all means get a custom steel frame. I would certainly not think twice about getting a modern steel frame built.But if you are chasing the classic appearance then you'd be better off seeking out a vintage bike.
They are great bikes and can be had with a full group for much less than a single custom frame. I think vintage frames all have different strengths and weakness. For instance my Carlton had a really sweet swept out fork that was springy, it felt supple on bad roads but it was a real noodle when climbing.
Modern steel is without a doubt better than vintage bikes made with SLX,SP etc...but you can find some classic custom frames of the era when SLX/SP was state of the art where the builder used stiffening braze on's on the bottom bracket shell. I think it does make a difference.
If you are going to commit to riding a 753 frame with sew ups, I don't think you will be sorry, that's creme de la creme of vintage performance and art.
I probably would not notice a difference in columbus slx/sp or even 4130. I did notice a difference when riding 753. It was stiffer and really felt lively and compliant if you want to use buzzwords, that's how I'd describe it.
If the wallet allows, buy all means get a custom steel frame. I would certainly not think twice about getting a modern steel frame built.But if you are chasing the classic appearance then you'd be better off seeking out a vintage bike.
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Man, I know that the newer materials far outpace the "old stuff," but I tend to think that so much of what we feel can be chalked up to fit, geometry, tires, etc. Out of all the bikes I've owned - and that's been quite a few - the most comfortable have been my 1966 Paramount, 1971 Raleigh International, and the Boulder Brevet I built in 2012. The Paramount and International are both 531, while the Boulder is whatever Mike Kone/Waterford specs. There's a similar size and geometry to the two older bikes, and while the fit is quite similar, the Boulder does not have a parallel top tube. Yet, all three are wonderful to ride and have a similar ride quality/fit. What is the magic to those three I wonder? I wish I could tell you with any sort of assurance. My overall sense is that a perfect fit will at least give higher quality tubing a run for the money. I'm really curious how others feel about new steel, custom fit, etc.
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Man, I know that the newer materials far outpace the "old stuff," but I tend to think that so much of what we feel can be chalked up to fit, geometry, tires, etc. Out of all the bikes I've owned - and that's been quite a few - the most comfortable have been my 1966 Paramount, 1971 Raleigh International, and the Boulder Brevet I built in 2012. The Paramount and International are both 531, while the Boulder is whatever Mike Kone/Waterford specs. There's a similar size and geometry to the two older bikes, and while the fit is quite similar, the Boulder does not have a parallel top tube. Yet, all three are wonderful to ride and have a similar ride quality/fit. What is the magic to those three I wonder? I wish I could tell you with any sort of assurance. My overall sense is that a perfect fit will at least give higher quality tubing a run for the money. I'm really curious how others feel about new steel, custom fit, etc.
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Some were indeed like that. The example I have fortunately rides pretty well. I think there could be a wide variation of construction fidelity, be it good brazing with good filling of the lugs and not overheated, to the frame came out straight by luck and no cold setting was necessary. Definitely a bike where you would want to test ride it if you could. I can state that there have been a few "big name" Italian bikes in the 70's that looked the part but did not feel like their sister bikes. Lug construction has plenty of places to induce a wide variation of fidelity.
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laterally stiff, yet vertically compliant.
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Something that I have been wondering about.
How much difference, if any, would there be in the ride, feel, weight, etc of (a) a top level 1970s or 1980s C&V production steel frame, (b) a top-level newer production steel frame, and (c) a modern custom steel frame. Each with the best steel of the day.
Presume all have identical components, wheels, tires. For example, suppose Campagnolo 10 speed brifters, with handbuilt wheels on alloy rims, 25 mm tubular tires.
An example of (a) might be my 1978 Raleigh Team Pro 753 or a 1986 (?) Look Bernard Hinault 753 that I am considering.
An example of (b) might be the early 2000's Colnago Master X-Light that I've always wanted to get someday.
An example of (c) might be a Waterford Artisan 953, with the lugs and horizontal top tube.
If you went on a 50 mile ride, a mix of flat road hammering, climbing, descending, town line sprints, and cruising, during which you couldn't or didn't look down at the bike - what would you notice? Anything big? Anything subtle? The relative lightness of your wallet?
How much difference, if any, would there be in the ride, feel, weight, etc of (a) a top level 1970s or 1980s C&V production steel frame, (b) a top-level newer production steel frame, and (c) a modern custom steel frame. Each with the best steel of the day.
Presume all have identical components, wheels, tires. For example, suppose Campagnolo 10 speed brifters, with handbuilt wheels on alloy rims, 25 mm tubular tires.
An example of (a) might be my 1978 Raleigh Team Pro 753 or a 1986 (?) Look Bernard Hinault 753 that I am considering.
An example of (b) might be the early 2000's Colnago Master X-Light that I've always wanted to get someday.
An example of (c) might be a Waterford Artisan 953, with the lugs and horizontal top tube.
If you went on a 50 mile ride, a mix of flat road hammering, climbing, descending, town line sprints, and cruising, during which you couldn't or didn't look down at the bike - what would you notice? Anything big? Anything subtle? The relative lightness of your wallet?
I suspect geometry makes the biggest difference in the feel after a 50-mile ride. Not only does this include rider position, but things like fork trail which have a huge impact on the feel of a ride. Next biggest difference I would feel is tire size and pressure. All else equal, I suspect I wouldn't feel much of a difference between a Waterford 953 and a 30-year old 531 frame.
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I understand it is a vague and difficult topic. I'm getting the impression that the modern steels, like 953 let's say, is much stronger than the vintage steels, like 753 for example, and comes in a wider variety of sizes including oversize. So, compared to vintage steels, 953 can be made into a lighter frame (thinner tubing walls), a stiffer frame (larger diameter tubing, where desired), or both lighter and stiffer.
Sound right?
Sound right?
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Most of the most noticeable ride differences between vintage and modern will be in design, then materials.
I can compare vintage to custom road frames based on my experience. I had a custom made with the same geometry as my bike from 1985. The most appreciable differences are in the weight, climbing ability, and the vertical dropouts. The frame and fork (both steel) weigh almost 2 lbs less than the 1985 bike. Adding to that, there is weight savings due to the thread-less stem. The vintage bike has ultegra level components, and the custom has record/SR level components. Wheelsets and tires are comparable.
There is no comparison in terms of climbing ability and the way the new bike transfers power to the ground. The new bike also seems more "flickable" in a pinch, but on the flat rides more composed. I'm not a builder and didn't study up on it, so I'm not sure why any of these things are true. Visibly, the chain stays are more ovalized on the custom and the down tube just a little larger diameter. The new fork flexes front to back much more than the old, but holds lines through turns better. These are the type of ride differences I attribute to the frame/fork more so than any component differences. I like both bikes very much and ride them about equally in terms of saddle time. I am convinced that a great builder can transform your described wants for how your new bike will ride into reality.
I can compare vintage to custom road frames based on my experience. I had a custom made with the same geometry as my bike from 1985. The most appreciable differences are in the weight, climbing ability, and the vertical dropouts. The frame and fork (both steel) weigh almost 2 lbs less than the 1985 bike. Adding to that, there is weight savings due to the thread-less stem. The vintage bike has ultegra level components, and the custom has record/SR level components. Wheelsets and tires are comparable.
There is no comparison in terms of climbing ability and the way the new bike transfers power to the ground. The new bike also seems more "flickable" in a pinch, but on the flat rides more composed. I'm not a builder and didn't study up on it, so I'm not sure why any of these things are true. Visibly, the chain stays are more ovalized on the custom and the down tube just a little larger diameter. The new fork flexes front to back much more than the old, but holds lines through turns better. These are the type of ride differences I attribute to the frame/fork more so than any component differences. I like both bikes very much and ride them about equally in terms of saddle time. I am convinced that a great builder can transform your described wants for how your new bike will ride into reality.
#18
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I understand it is a vague and difficult topic. I'm getting the impression that the modern steels, like 953 let's say, is much stronger than the vintage steels, like 753 for example, and comes in a wider variety of sizes including oversize. So, compared to vintage steels, 953 can be made into a lighter frame (thinner tubing walls), a stiffer frame (larger diameter tubing, where desired), or both lighter and stiffer.
Sound right?
Sound right?
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John, some relevant reading from a vintage issue of a great bicycle magazine: Magnificent 7
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#21
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John, some relevant reading from a vintage issue of a great bicycle magazine: Magnificent 7
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John, some relevant reading from a vintage issue of a great bicycle magazine: Magnificent 7
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When someone is selling you something, it is invariably the bees knees. When you invest heavily in something you will be naturally swayed to believe that it is the best thing since sliced bread (not that sliced bread is all that when you stop and think about it). Human Bias is so bad that they have to go to extreme lengths to avoid it when testing new medicines in order to prove efficacy. The two linked article above show that difference in steel grades is probably un-noticeable to most riders.
I would argue the same for custom bike builds - If you have unusual physical dimensions, then a custom frame build may be the only way to get a bike that fits reasonably comfortably but for your average Joe-Fred, then the adjustments possible with seatpost, Stem, Cranks and Handlebars are enough. Of course, I could be shot in the face for saying that but do you really think someone who paid $5,000 for a custom bike build is going to admit that it's made little or no difference. Look how many people are turning to Homeopathy and how vociferously they will defend.
Vinatge bikes are not about performance, no one brings a restored Model T to the Car fair and argues its merits versus a new car, they bring it because of the nostalgia and sense of history and the camaraderie with a group of like minded souls. It's not the object that brings happiness, it's the experience that the object make possible. If you want to experience performance, buy the new bike. If you want to experience vintage cycling in relevant context then buy a vintage bike... just beware of the false idols of bias.
I would argue the same for custom bike builds - If you have unusual physical dimensions, then a custom frame build may be the only way to get a bike that fits reasonably comfortably but for your average Joe-Fred, then the adjustments possible with seatpost, Stem, Cranks and Handlebars are enough. Of course, I could be shot in the face for saying that but do you really think someone who paid $5,000 for a custom bike build is going to admit that it's made little or no difference. Look how many people are turning to Homeopathy and how vociferously they will defend.
Vinatge bikes are not about performance, no one brings a restored Model T to the Car fair and argues its merits versus a new car, they bring it because of the nostalgia and sense of history and the camaraderie with a group of like minded souls. It's not the object that brings happiness, it's the experience that the object make possible. If you want to experience performance, buy the new bike. If you want to experience vintage cycling in relevant context then buy a vintage bike... just beware of the false idols of bias.
#24
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Reynolds 753 has an ultimate tensile strength of 1080-1280 MPa, 853 has a UTS of 1250-1400 MPa, and 953 has a UTS of 1750 to 2050 MPa.
Since 953 is almost twice as strong as 753, I believe the use of the term 'much stronger' is easily justified.
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Another comparison: 87_03Steel1
This rider took a lot longer to evaluate the bikes than did the rider in the seven bike shootout.