FarHorizon

So I'm rebuilding an old Nishiki. Since it's nowhere near stock anyway, I'm not concerned about authenticity. I would, however, like to have some lettering on the frame. As I see it, there are several ways to do it:

1. Hand letter the frame with a fine paint brush. The plusses to this approach are that you can use any color or font that you fancy. The minuses are that few have a steady enough hand and good enough eye to get consistent lettering on a curved surface.

2. Print decals. Obviously, this has strong appeal, but since printers (almost universally) can't print white, using any white in the decal is probably a non-starter.

3. Buy "stick-on" letters. This keeps the lettering straight and uniform, but the letters won't be flush with the paint on the frame. Therefore, when you wax the frame, wax will build up at the edges of the letters. The letters also would be prone to being washed off or peeling off spontaneously.

So am I missing any obvious choices? What have youse guys done to apply frame lettering?

Thanks - FH

non-fixie 

How about a set from Velocals?

sloar 

Exactly, they are thin enough that you don't have to worry about wax build up. And the are uv protected!

FarHorizon

If I wanted to restore the frame with original decals, that would be a good option. But what I want to do instead is create my own text on the frame. I need a lettering set (in decal format). Maybe this site? Vinyl Lettering | Custom Vinyl Bike Lettering

Problem is, they're EXPENSIVE! Four decals (both sides of top & down tube) would be about $50!

I think I may have to print my own on a laser printer and forego any white accents...

jj1091

One possibility is that maybe you could use a clear waterslide decal paper, and underpaint the area on the frame with a light coat of white spray paint. Set the areas that you want to show up white as null (no color) then the white would show through the clear spots.

iab

Any sign shop in your hometown cuts vinyl letters. Much closer to $10 than $50. Give them a call.

rhm

I print waterslide decals on the laser printer at work. If I want to use white or gold in the design, as is usually the case, I print the decals in mirror image and hand paint the desired color onto the back side of the decal.



When I do this, I put a thin smear of water soluble glue on frame where the decal will go, and put the wet decal over this. Then I carefully squeeze all the water and glue out from under the decal, working from the center outward. It's a little more difficult than putting the same decal on the usual way. Once the decal is in place, it takes a day or two to fully dry; once it's dry it is very stable, especially if clearcoated.

rootboy 

Really cool, RHM. Did you do the box ling too? very nice job. Love the color and graphics.

rhm

Thanks! Yup, all home made. Love those Sharpie paint pens, as explained elsewhere. You have to keep a certain distance; doesn't look so good right up close.

rootboy 

I've thought that it would be neat to hand letter a frame, a' la Rene Herse. But it would require some real skill.

FarHorizon

Well, various feedbacks:

It may be possible that there are people who can hand-paint a frame's rust spots with a brush and have their work indistinguishable from the factory paint. I'm NOT one of them. I did it properly - I scraped off all the loose rust (and not all rust was visible - some places the paint had bubbled - under every bubble I found a rust spot 1.5 to 2 x the diameter of the paint bubble). I used a rust fixer to stabilize remaining surface rust in the spots. I lightly sanded the excess rust-fixer smooth - then applied a primer. Finally, I used an enamel that exactly matched the paint color (from the store's color card & from the colored bottle cap). I applied the enamel, waited overnight and surprise - the enamel was at least three shades lighter than the factory paint. So now my options are to sand down and start over (another two days' work wasted) or live with 10% of the frame looking mottled. Sigh...

So next I figured that some camouflage would distract attention from the mottled look - I printed some decals on my color laser printer. After fighting the printer for an hour to get it to accept the custom-sized decal paper (I'll never buy another HP printer), I got the decals printed. They looked gorgeous! Bright, bold and contrasty enough to pop out against the dark grey frame. So I go to install them... Surprise again - the decals aren't opaque - they are translucent. So much so that one can hardly notice the decal against the background color! Throw those away - another morning's work gone...

So lessons learned (for me):

1. If it's more than a small spot - don't bother trying to touch it up. Maybe 10 to 15% of this frame had rust on it, so I should have just had it sand-blasted and painted. The touch-up attempt was nothing but a massive waste of time & resources.

2. Need decals? Buy some. Unless your frame is a light (LIGHT) color, the decals you print yourself won't show up. If I decide to keep this bike, I may go with white for the frame color and THEN try printing some decals, but even then, I have my doubts...

3. Examine bikes BEFORE you buy them. Bad paint = mega $$$ to fix. Of course, if you don't mind fugly, then pedal on!

If I like the current bike as much as I expect to, then a sandblast & spray-can job (at a minimum) will be the way to fly. But of course, to get there, I'll need to strip the whole frame again & rebuild it after painting (sigh...). So for the time being, I'll ride the scabrous (and I mean that adjective in all three of its common meanings - "having a rough surface" - "indecent or obscene" - "full of difficulties") thing until I make a "keep-or-cull" decision. May your rides be less troublesome and your experiences less ignominious.

FH

Oldpeddaller

Hi Rudi, I had just come to the same conclusion about printing decals in reverse and painting over them with opaque paint. I guess I'd still need to spray with acrylic clear coat over the top of this? Why do you need to apply water soluble glue? Will the reversed & painted decal not stick in the usual way? I'm REALLY interested! Thanks, Stuart

rhm

Frankly, I'm not sure what is necessary. Water slide decals use corn starch or something to hold the decal to the paper until you soak it off, and that becomes the glue that sticks it down after it dries. Maybe it would stick without it? I don't know how well it will stick on its own. The wet glue also serves as a lubricant, giving you time to move the decal around a bit.

The same goes for clear coat; I don't know if it's needed.

When you print your decals, make extra copies. You'll probably destroy the first ones you try to install.

RobbieTunes

Beat me to it. Best choice for me, about 6 times now...

repechage

I think the problem is not fully considering the art/love/time/money/capability matrix.

okane

For simple lettering jobs I make stencils. If you have or find an image on line, it's easy to resize in your computer. On the old timer shown here I just scanned the actual tank because the lettering was identical to what I wanted.

Next step is to sit down with a sharp exacto and cut out the letters. I usually shoot some clear lacquer on both sides of the paper which stiffens it a bit and allows a sharper edge.

Then I spray some "removable glue" on the back of the stencil, position it, and use my airbrush to spray appropriate color.

As a final step if your are lettering an already painted area, lightly spray clear over the lettering and surrounding area, then polish to an even sheen.

I have done this a number of times for simple lettering jobs and have been pleased with the results, but you do need an airbrush. I bought my $50 badger for $5 many years ago and have used it many, many times for all types of projects

Someone more talented or patient than me could probably use overlays and get pretty intricate designs, letters, etc.

The big advantages to this method are being able to make any size and paint any color, and if you a mistake cutting the stencil, print a new one and start over.

Beljum

A few years ago I helped a friend fabricate a 30's era speedometer face with white on black letters. I used white waterslide decal paper and it came out very nice. Might be worth a trip to Staples for a practice sheet to see if the quality meets your standard.



DecalPaper.com - Decals - Waterslide decal paper or inkjet,laser printers Alps & copiers

A quote from the above link....
For white lettering / white artwork / white paper users:

In order to print the color "white" successfully you will either require an ALPS printer that has the ability to print opaque white, or our high performance WHITE DECAL PAPER. If you do not have an ALPS printer, do not worry; this alternative product is perfect for you. Now you can use our BEL INC white decal paper and get the same excellent results for all of your artworks that include the color white.

FarHorizon

Thank you @Beljum -

The white decal paper is what I need (but wasn't aware of until you pointed it out). I got a $35 quote for blasting the frame, so a repaint with fresh lettering is probably on the horizon.

Which brings up another question. I plan to paint the aft parts of my chain & seat stays chrome, the lugs chrome, and the head-tube and seat-tube panel red with the remainder of the frame white. Should I have the frame powder-coated white and then apply the other colors with spray cans? An alternate would be to have the frame powder-coated chrome and then paint the tubes. Yet another option would be to spray can everything.

The majority of the frame will be white. 20% will be chrome, and the remaining 10% red. Therefore, if I'm to powder coat, the 70% coverage color (white) should be the powder coat color, I'm thinking.

Ideas? Thanks - FH

rhm

I don't know the answers to those questions but they raise other questions in my mind. Mainly I wonder how good the powder coat chrome looks, and how well other paint (specifically rattlecan paint) sticks to it. There are some nice transparent rattle can automotive paints that, when sprayed over a silver base, look pretty spectacular. That might be the way to go. With that, an interesting option would be:
1 chrome powder coat the whole frame
2 mask off the stays, lugs, etc
3 add stick-on letters for decals
4 spray with a transparent top coat
5 remove all masks, including the letters, to reveal chrome lettering.

Would it work? Dunno.

FarHorizon

Yes, @rhm, it should work. From other threads, I've seen that some have roughed up their powder coat surface to ensure spray adhesion, others have just sprayed over the gloss powder coat without issue. What might work nicely would be to powder coat the entire frame in chrome and use translucent "candy" colors to cover the majority of the frame triangle. A candy apple green or red with chrome letters showing through might be nice... Head tube & contrasting panels could be done in an opaque gloss enamel.

The spray application of a translucent color would much trickier - runs, drips, and sags would show through grossly. Straight tubes wouldn't be a problem. Braze-ons = instant trouble. So to do a chrome powder coat, I'd want to file off the braze-ons & use some clamp-on stops & cable guides after painting was complete.

I'm also wondering if lugs could be brush-painted? With a wet enamel coat that was then baked on, I'd think so, but I don't really know.

So the decision tree is between a chrome or a primary-color powder coating. If I can brush-paint the lugs chrome, the only other part of the frame that I'd want chrome on is the back half of the rear triangle. Then spray the head tube & seat tube panel. That could easily be done via spray can.

OTOH, if I go chrome powder coat, then I have to remove braze ons, apply translucent coat(s) of spray to the majority of the frame, bake, and then mask / spray the head tube & contrasting color panels.

Seems that the chrome would be easier to apply OVER the primary-color powder coat. Less work & I get to keep the braze-ons. But if there are factors that I haven't considered, please bring them to my attention.

Thanks again - FH

Lascauxcaveman 

I don't see any problem spraying on or around brazeons, with the right equipment and/or technique. The last paint job I did was a semi-transparent finish over white primer applied (slowly) in many overlapping coats using a cheap airbrush kit set up to apply the paint very lightly. If you've never used an airbrush, you might want to look into it look into it, especially if you already have access to an air compressor. It gives you a lot more control; it's not at all like using a rattlecan. Although you can paint anything with a rattlecan and still get decent results; it takes a lot more skill and practice. You also waste more paint because the rate of flow is not controllable.

SquidPuppet

Just a heads up. There are no chrome powder coating powders that look truly like chrome. They range from a greyish to a silver, buy none have the ability to produce the "mirror" effect of chrome or polished aluminum. Personal experience. It's not "close enough" for me and I am a huge proponent of powder coating. I suggest you visit a powder coater and look at samples that they might have in order to decide for yourself, beforehand, if it's acceptable to you.

They can do some crazy things though, with chromes and metallics under candies for a real POP.

CroMo Mike 

In RC model boat racing I hand-cut my own lettering from Monokote vinyl trim sheet with an X-acto knife. These pictures show a 2-layer cut I did to produce a shadow effect. A sign shop might do the same thing using a lazer cutter machine or paint printer for about $50. The raised nature of the letters adds interest and really is no big deal when waxing. The Monokote is glossy, very durable, and withstands race abuse and sunlight for years.

The Zenoah decal was done by hand-cutting the blue lettering and applying it to a red monokote sheet, then cutting freehand around the letters to create the background shadow. Then moving the whole thing to the boat. The Zenoah letters are only about 3/4" tall.

Oldpeddaller

Thanks Rudi, some useful food for thought here - I'll probably experiment applying samples to some scrap surfaces when the weather finally improves. Lauseauxcaveman's idea of using an airbrush is also a possibility for bands and lettering with paper stencils. I have an airbrush kit and a regulated air compressor but had not thought to try coupling the two together!

SquidPuppet

Hand cut????