JohnDThompson 

They weren't as litigious as Reynolds (anybody else remember the "NOT 531" debacle?), but they did eventually start insisting on "RIVERNICIATO" decals on resprayed frames.

verktyg 

@jonwvara and @Chicago Al

Those catalogs were done long before the days of "DTP" (Desk Top Publishing on a MAC or a PC). They were put together by graphics artists and layout artists using "cut and paste" techniques with an Exacto knife, rubber cement and Letraset rub-on graphics



Most of the time these folks had little or no knowledge of the products they were producing literature for. Same thing with the editors. The cost of graphics design, photography and photoengraving to make the printing plates was very expensive so once the layout work was done, there were very few corrections made.

Also, because of the costs involved, many companies in the bike business used old artwork over again for many years.


Now, if you are curious about whether the rear stays on your bike are Reynold 531 or not, the easiest way to tell is to pull the BB and look inside the chainstays for seams or lack of them. You'll need a flash light and rotate the frame to check all around the insides of the stays.

You can see the seam inside this stay.



Reynolds 531 stays would be seamless, same thing with most Columbus tubes plus Super Vitus and the best quality Japanese tubing.

Alloy steels used in seamless tubing are generally 1/3rd stronger than the steel that was used in most seamed tubes. This allowed for thinner wall thicknesses that were lighter and absorbed more road shock and vibrations.

Vitus 172 tubing was seamed but made out of a good quality of steel that had almost the strength of Reynolds 531.

One other thing, Grand Records from 1974 through 1976 used seat stays that were 5/8" (16mm) diameter at the tops. Cheaper tubes usually had 1/2" or (12MM) seat stays during those years.

Trust but verify!

verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

Hi John,

I think that it was Bike Warehouse the catalog business in Ohio that Reynolds went after for the GUARANTEED NOT BUILT WITH decals about 1975 or 76.

Did Trek have any problems getting Reynolds decals?

Why does the whole Reynolds decal thing remind me of the movie "A Fish Called Wanda"

verktyg

Chas.

eschlwc

damn skippy. light stuff too. wish my g.record were vitus 172 in the stays.

but ... the way it is, it makes for a great loaded tourer. the stays aren't as long as on the g.jubilé, but they're just long enough i don't hit my heel on the pannier.

jonwvara 

In other words, who are you going to believe, your eyes or that lying decal and catalog? I'll take a look next time I have the bottom bracket apart. The bike will ride a lot better if I can confirm that the frame really does have 531 stays.

JohnDThompson 

No. We always had plenty on hand. When they moved to the new style in the early 80s, they sent new style replacements so all the new production would have the new graphics. This left a surfeit of old style decals.

JJScaliger

Wow, Verktyg you are a wealth of information! This thread is very interesting!

Chicago Al 

I look forward to inspecting this as well, and will report back! It'll have to be a bit warmer though. I am not doubting you, Chas., but the catalog + the decal are consistent, and the distinction between '3 tubes' and 'throughout' would have been a distinct marketing and price point difference between the GR and the Le Champion.

verktyg 

eschlwc,

During the 1970s to early 80s Reynolds 531 "Sprint" tube sets were the most commonly used tubing on most Reynolds production frames made in Continental Europe, also many Raleigh, Carlton, Dawes and Falcon frames in the UK.

The main tubes were 1.0mm on the butted ends and 0.7mm thick in the non-butted sections. The top and down tubes were the only "double butted" tubes back then. The seat tube was single butted at the bottom where it went into the BB shell. The rest of the tubes except the fork blades were straight gage.

This shows the butted tube ends



Production frames were made with thicker tubes to allow the use of less skilled workers to do the brazing without too much concern for overheating the tubes.

Many frames in the UK were made by smaller builders or even 1 man shops. You could custom order a frame made of lighter gage tubing. Same was true but to a lesser degree in France, the Netherlands and Belgium.


Surprise, Surprise, Surprise... Heavier gage Columbus SP tubing and Vitus 172 tubes had just about the same wall thicknesses as Reynolds 531 Sprint tubes.

Especially in the case of Columbus, the heavier SP tubing was used for the same reason. Vitus 172 didn't become popular until the late 70s and it had the same advantages.

All things being equal (fame size, geometry and components) it would be very difficult to tell the difference in a production frame made of Reynolds 531 Sprint, Columbus SP or Vitus 172.

In the mid 70s a lot of prestige Italian frames started being made of lighter gage Columbus SL tubing (the same wall thickness as Super Vitus 971). The main tubes were 0.9mm x 0.6mm and the rest of the tubes were lighter too. Larger frames (60cm+) continued to be made with Columbus SP tubes.

Reynolds offered 531 in a much wider selection of tube dimensions than the other tubing makers but those outside of the 3 or 4 common sets, had to be ordered in lots with enough tubes to build 100 frames.

Now for something completely different....

Many bikes used by pro racers were made of the 1.0mm x 0.7mm Reynolds 531 or Columbus SP tubing. The reason being, "Domestiques" made up most of the members of a team. They were given 1 bike at the beginning of the season. In many cases these bikes were passed down to "farm teams" for the next season.

These heavier frames could survive crashes and mishandling by the team support personal when transporting the bikes between stages.

Star riders, like Merckx were able to have a stable of bikes of their choosing. When Lemond joined the pro peloton, the money he brought to the sport changed everything and lesser riders were given lighter bikes too.

verktyg

Chas.

Kactus

I enjoy reading your posts Chas. I never fail to learn something new.

Rocky Gravol

A lot of fascinating history here.
But can someone here explain Vitus 188,
to me that's was used on my Grand Touring?

verktyg 

I've only ever seen one other reference to Vitus 188 and it was ??? Could it be 788 or 183?

During the late 70s french bike makers started labeling bikes with Durifort 888 stickers. These had straight gage main tubes with a 0.8mm wall thickness. This tubing dates back to the 1940s or earlier and was originally sold in 3 main tube sets as Rubis tubing. Durifort tubing was made with a steel that had about 1/2 the strength of Reynolds 531, Columbus SL and SP plus Super Vitus 971.



In the late 70s, Ateliers de la Rive the makers of Durifort, Vitus and Super Vitus (also the aluminum Vitus frames) was running into a lot of competition from Columbus for the mid range market. They changed from Durifort 888 to Vitus 888. The low alloy high strength steel used in Vitus tubes during those years was a had about 90%-95% the strength of the higher alloy steels. Also these tubes were seamed. The main tubes were drawn over mandrel to remove any short coming from the seams.

Vitus 788 had 0.7mm top tubes ??? and 0.8mm down and seat tubes. Vitus 888 was the same except all the main tubes were 0.8mm. Vitus 788 wasn't that common.

Vitus 172 had butted main tubes and was produced throughout the 70s. It was replaced with Vitus 181 which was made of higher alloy chrome-moly steel.



There may have been Vitus 182 and 183???

I'd prefer a frame with 0.8mm straight gage tubes than one with 1.0mm x 0.7mm butted tubing... It's going to be smoother riding.

verktyg

Chas.

orcas island 

Chas - Thanks so much for the discussion of tubing; it's an education for sure! I've always focused on 531 as being the "good stuff"; its nice to gain a broader awareness of the different tubing types that were used in a variety of high quality bikes.

rootboy 

OK. Overcome with curiosity, I got the flashlight and went down and looked at my 74 Grand record frame, which hangs, bare nekkid, in my shop, waiting for me to get up the gumption to try a re-paint. FWIW, sure enough, the chain stays on my frame, which sports the "3 tubes reinforces" decal, DO have seams in them.

Go figure.

jonwvara 

That information is a dagger to my heart.

rootboy 

Sorry Jon. But, at least it does add some credence to your's and Chicago Al's theory regarding the wording in the catalog. Which I interpreted as meaning the whole frame wasn't 531 also. Trusted the decal too, which could be a fool's errand. Who knows?
Doesn't make much difference to me, however.

kroozer 

Those TA cranks are pretty nice too. The 3-pin 116mm bolt diameter was an industry standard and very popular in Europe through most of the 20th century, although it was usually found on cottered steel cranks (Williams, Chater Lea, Nervar, Magistroni, and many others). It will take a 36-tooth inner chainring-- it's easy to find steel ones, more difficult but not impossible to get alloy ones. I have a TA 36-51 paired with a 14-32 freewheel, and a long-cage Campy Nuovo Record derailleur just like yours. It's a great set-up for the mountains.

Rocky Gravol

Thank you for that.

But yes I misspoke, I meant Vitus 888.
My label is mostly gone, I'm going by what the catalogue says I should have.

So you really think the straight tube gives a better ride than butted?

verktyg 

Well now pilgrim....

I have a 1974 Grand Jubile that's 3 tube Reynolds 531 with mystery metal forks and stays. It' in my top 10 (maybe 11 or 12) favorite riding bikes.

It was a dump frame that had been through a compactor garbage truck. I had the forks and frame realigned and put it together as a wet weather beater but then I found how nice it rides and handles.




I like it so much that I recently bought and early 70s yellow and black Grand Record frame that's 3 tubes Reynolds too. I'm in the process of building it up almost all original and I expect it to be a nice riding bike too.




I think that the ride and handling on your 3 tubes Reynolds Grand Records are going to be just like my 1974 Grand Jubile (they're basically the same frames except for the dropouts).

The early 1974 Grand Records with the 3 tubes Reynolds frames may have been produced in 1973. Since most French bike makers never kept accurate records of serial numbers and production dates, there's no way of telling when a bike was manufactured.

For example a bike could sit for months in Motobecane's warehouse then 1 to 3 months shipping time, up to a year or more in the importer/distributor's warehouse plus how long in the bike shop before it was sold??? The smallest and largest size bikes were the slowest sellers so bikes like those had usually been sitting in someone's inventory for a while.

Ben Lawee, the US Motobecane importer/distributor was a pretty savvy marketer. By 1973 many US bike buyers had become more aware of quality differences in bikes due to the many books and buyers guides that were available. This was especially true for mid range models.

Buyers started looking for Reynolds stickers on bikes and many became somewhat aware of the different flavors of Reynolds tubing: straight gage main tubes, straight gage main tubes, forks and stays, butted main tubes and all Reynolds tubing with butted main tubes.

The Grand Record was an upscale bike, 3rd from the top Motobecane model in 1974. They were priced above the Gitane Tour de France and Peugeot PX10 which had all Reynolds frames.

Ben Lawee probably influenced Motobecane to start making the Grand Record frames out of all Reynolds tubing so the later 1974 Grand Records most likely had all Reynolds frames.

One other thing, in the 70s most bike catalogs came out in early fall in time for Xmas business (bikes were still view by many in the US as toys). The 1974 Moto catalog was probably put together in 1973. So, as I mentioned in and earlier post you can't rely of catalogs for more than guide lines for dating bikes. "les spécifications sont sujettes à modification sans préavis"

Ride, ride, ride....

verktyg

Chas.

verktyg 

Well, yes and no....

So called "gas pipe" bikes had main tubes with wall thicknesses of 1.5mm to 3mm+... The rear stays and forks were equally thick. This gave the bike a clunky, dead feel.

Thinner tubes give a bike a more bouncy springy feel - up to the point of too much flex. Things like rider weight and frame size affect those factors.

Tensile strength is a much misused engineering term but it can be handy to give a rough comparison. The low end garbage steel that was used in many department store gas pipe bikes could have a tensile strength (ultimate yield strength) of 30,000 to 40,000 psi.

Lugged entry level European and Japanese bikes from that era used slightly stronger low carbon, low alloy steels with a tensile strength of up to 60,000 psi.

Alloy steel tubing like Reynolds 531, Columbus SL and SP, Super Vitus 971 and 980 plus 4130 chrome-moly tubes from Ishiwata and Tange had tensile strengths of around 125,000 psi (Vitus 172 was 120,000 psi). all of these figures are in the before brazing or welding state. The after brazing strength could be reduced by up to a third.

The 2 advantages of alloy steels over plain carbon steels is tubes made of stronger steel can be lighter and thinner plus they will have much more fatigue resistance. So after 5-10 years of hard riding a frame made of stronger steel is going to be less likely to fail.

BTW, 6061-T6 Aluminum alloy can be heat treated to a tensile strength of 45,000 psi and 7075-T6 Aluminum alloy yo 83,000 psi.


Back from digression... if you have 2 frames made of a quality steel with identical wall thickness fork blades and rear stays, and one is made with butted main tubes 1mm x 0.7mm thick, the other made with straight gage 0.8mm wall thickness tubes, the one with the straight gage tubes "may" be slightly lighter and "may give a smoother ride because the ends of the tubes are thinner and thus slightly more flexible.

My 1973 W. F. Holdsworthy Competezione is probably made with straight gage main tubes and who knows what kind of forks and stays. It's also in my top 10 favorite riding bikes. (some of the others are made of Reynolds 753, Columbus ELOS and other premium types of tubing)



Hope that answers your question...

verktyg

Chas.