Maxacceleration

I think this thread is living proof of there are plenty of holy grail bikes (as I said earlier).
Each person has their own idea of their holy grail bike. It could be fairly normal, exquisite, or rather unobtainable.
Many of these 'finds' require a lot of CL or fleabay time to find these gems, as many here spend that time. Or luck.

Holy Grail by definition is well, rather complex.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail

Or:

grail
ɡrāl/
noun
1.
(in medieval legend) the cup or platter used by Jesus at the Last Supper, and in which Joseph of Arimathea received Christ's blood at the Cross.
Quests for it undertaken by medieval knights are described in versions of the Arthurian legends written from the early 13th century onward.
2.
a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after.
"profit has become the holy grail"

Grail here is probably each persons version of their lusted after bada$$ bicycle. Whether they own it already, or would like to own it (or just lust after).
To each their own.
Bring on your grail bikes!

rekmeyata

I'm not really into "really great" vintage bikes because I think they're way overpriced, and the vintage Campy components found on "really great" vintage bikes were not all that great despite what Italian and Campy lovers will scream. Add on top of that vintage steel Columbus or especially Vitus were flexier than their British or Japanese steel makers counterparts; it wasn't till after Miyata came out with their splined tubing did Columbus develop one in response called the SLX ribbed did Columbus have their least flexy tubeset which compared to...believe it not Reynolds 531 without ribs. Reynolds 531 was always considered the sprinters tubeset, while Columbus was more of a long distance tubeset because the flex absorbed some of the vibration more.

So I stay mostly with mid level vintage bikes because I can get those cheap, and I stay with Japanese components especially Suntour because they were bulletproof and shifted faster than anyone else. That doesn't mean I don't have any vintage Shimano because even vintage Shimano worked better than Campy!

I will say this, vintage Italian and especially French bikes generally had more eye appeal than Japanese or American bike manufactures had, but European paint was fragile and thus wouldn't last as long as others.

Side note; I don't think curly chainstays would have much of an effect on the ride quality, but swayed seatstays would have some effect since that would take up some of the up and down vibrations. However since the question was asked about the curly stays I found this site that should answer all the questions about the rationale behind them: Hetchins curly stays, vibrant stays, hellenic stays

I have several vintage bikes and none would I consider better than another in terms of ride quality, but they all have a different personality which I is why I like all of them.

ThermionicScott 

I know how to use a dictionary, too.

Just offering my opinion. Carry on.

johnnyace 

You just provided me with a great education on a topic I was wondering about just today (differences between Reynolds, Tange, Columbus steel), and also a confirmation as to why I like my Suntour Superbe group more than any Campy or Shimano equipped bike I've ever ridden.

Speaking of which, I think I have a new grail bike:

KonAaron Snake 

I think nearly everything he wrote is complete non-sense, but if it makes people happy to demean more respected stuff that your stuff copied, by all means...pretend you can tell Reynolds from Columbus

The flexiest, crappiest, sloppiest bikes I've ever ridden were all Brits...and 531, though I doubt it had anything to do with tubing or nation of origin, and everything to do with crappy quality control at Raleigh.

I have to say I think it's funny how many people group an entire country's bikes together as if they're the same. I also find it doubly funny how many people run down things here that they've never ridden.

Wileyone 

Raleigh is not the only "Brit" Bicycle...Like any other Country of origin you have the good the bad and the ugly. In my experience the high end "Brit" Bicycles I have encountered are consistently better made and finished under the paint than anything else on the market. I recently stripped a high end Ciocc Columbus SLX with the worst brazing job I have ever seen. Never seen that sort of workmanship on any high end "Brit" Bicycle. And not all of them use Reynolds Tubing.

jjhabbs 

I own 20 vintage bicycles, Most are either Reynolds or Columbus tubed bikes. Most are top of the line or near the top of the line for its day.

I also own a Carbon fiber Specialized that weighs 17lbs.

Some would say that this bike or that is flexier or to steep or to heavy.

I would have to ask.

Does someone drive a 1957 Chevy or a Porsche 356 because of how it performs?

NO, newer cars perform better by far.

You drive it for the style.

My new carbon fiber is lighter, stiffer and even in most cases more comfortable.

I ride my classics becaues of the History, the craftsmanship and in some cases the way it rides.

Do I ride campagnolo NR or SR because of its performance No!

The only people that complain or make fun of vintage performance are those that cant afford it.

Just sayin.

KonAaron Snake 

Once again, as should be obvious to anyone, it's about the builder, not tubing or the nation of origin. All of them have some dogs. Some had better quality control than others. There are also many Brits, some posted on this thread, with reputations for very variable build quality.

Buy what you like...you can also do that without running down others, calling things hype, etc.

Pawlus

All I'm saying is people are thinking with stereotypes, easy generalization to most complex subjects. I personally love vintage pink bikes, actually I really enjoy all paint schemes that would never work on a carbon bike, but pull it off brilliant on thin tubed steel bikes. Miyatas above would make great example.

rekmeyata

OF course you're going to get distractors, but hey what would these forums be like without them? BOOORRING!

Seriously there isn't a whole lot a difference between tube sets if they all had the same tube thickness and all put on the same bike with the same geometry, the problems developed when these companies spec'd the tubes with to thin wall thicknesses. Although the late 70's and early 80's Peugeot PX10's I test rode where just horrible and they weren't that light as a few other high end brands, I got all the PX10's to rub the front derailleur cage on both sides on hard acceleration, and if that wasn't enough the rear wheel would at the same time was rubbing both sides of the brake pads, and I test rode several of these bikes over the course of 5 or so years to see if they made them any better. Now maybe some of the rear brake rubbing was due to poor wheel design, I don't know, but just the BB cage flexing that much was disconcerting by itself. So there may be some tubesets that used inferior steel if Vitus steel is any indication.

Road Fan

They all sound great but I'm very curious about teh Pinarello - What year, and is it steel?

I have a fantastic Mondonico ELOS, speaking of thin-wall tubing, and I'm interested in more.

Dave Cutter

And within that simple statement is the true embodiment of a grail bike.

A grail bike doesn't have a SKU number. You can't order a grail from Schwinn or Amazon. Maybe.... one can be located on CL or eBay... but then again maybe not. Specific size, condition, even color all matter. A grail quest... is an adventure. And no one knows how an adventure will end.

Following the advice of bicycle enthusiasts like oddjob2 I've hunted down, restored, owned, and enjoyed many bicycles I had seen (and even envied) over the years when I wasn't cycling. Peugeot, Bianchi, Lotus, Univega, Cannondale, Trek.... I even bought an old Schwinn, reminiscent of the 63 Varsity from my youth.

Following the N1 rules.... I've limited the size my collection. Although the actual number of bikes I own has varied. I satisfy my need to acquire desired bikes... and appease my wife's desire for order... by selling off bikes after a period of time.

And it isn't just classic or vintage bikes I am attracted to. I bought a brand new bike in 2010, and another in 2014. Come spring I may be forced to sell the 1st new bike. Because so many new road bikes now have disc brakes...... I feel compelled to own one.

And a classic. I always keep my eye out for a LeMond.

KonAaron Snake 

Pics

seypat

One thing that never seems to get mentioned when one of these threads pop up is rider size. I feel sorry for all of the tall riders out there. No matter the brand, they will be riding a frame with more flex than the shorter people. That DeRosa, or (fill in the blank) in a 60-63 is just going to feel different that the same frame in a 52. It probably will have a different geometry as well. So that DeRosa, or (fill in the blank) might be a great ride for one but not so for the other. I'm lucky that at 5'8" I'm in the sweet spot for frames. 54-56 all feel about the same no matter the tubing. I have a Team Miyata in a 50 or 52. That frame is a boneshaker it is so stiff! No all day riding on that. But in a 56 it might be just right.

A grail bike is just one that makes the owner happy for whatever reason. It might be the name, or the paint, or the lugs. It might be the chase. Whatever the reason, it is highly subjective. BTW, I like pink bikes as well.

DMC707

Happy to oblige, but this one is not really C&V yet (just out of style compared to modern carbon) --- in the late 90's and early '00s before carbon took over, lock, stock and barrel ----- Pinarello made 3 basically identical bikes with the chief difference being the material the mainframe was made of,

The PRince had an aluminum mainframe with a carbon seatstay wishbone, -- the Dogma had a scandium mainframe and was the flagship model as used in the pro tour, --- then there is the Opera--- since I like steel, I actually think the Opera is probably superior for my wants and needs than the flagship Dogma.

This one is an '04, in '05 they got the squiggly fork Pinarello is now known for , but by '06 they were gone. And the '04 had an oversize seatpost diameter compared to earlier models, so it was easy to narrow it down

The PRince and the Dogma are still around in full carbon form, but the Opera name was spun off into its own company under the Pinarello umbrella


For an "internet era" bike, I have found very little in the way of reviews for the bike, --- the main frame is rumored to have been sub-contracted out to the PEgoretti shop for welding --- but I cannot substantiate that
(although the PEgoretti tie in I think is the cycling equivalent of the "corvette motor" -- every aging old truck , el camino or Camaro out there gathering dust with a for sale sign on it has a "corevette motor" that is hard to substantiate )

Regardless , the steel is oversize and very light -- the frameset is the same weight as a Litespeed Classic I have from the same era

I expected a stiff ride due to the carbon and OS steel, but surprisingly, its plush -- it has a long and low feel that I can't explain because the measurements are pretty close to every other road bike I have in my collection -----

It does not have adequate clearance for 25's , so I run 23's at a high psi and the ride is still great

Now that it has some miles on it, it could use some sorting out -- most of the components I carried over from the Litespeed donor bike, but the handlebars are too deep a drop for me --- so I am going with my current favorite setup , Salsa cowbells in 46 and a bit lower stem , along with a zero offset post

--- I don't know if those changes will affect the long and low feel much or not , because I kinda' like that sensation , but will see

-- The only Italian bike I have with a Shimano group on it as well ---- seems to be a good match for the higher tech frameset though

DMC707

In that case, I will take a Hetchins Magnum Opus with chrome lugs please

I would have to farm the build out to someone who knew more about how to dress out such a bike, ---- but one of those would sure be a hoot on the Saturday morning coffee shop ride (probably any other time as well )

I'm a Bridgestone fan, so I used to consider any Rivendell as a grail bike of sorts, but now my tastes have kind of moved on --- as well, the way they change up the inventory and contract out to Taiwanese sources for most of their "attainable" frames has kind of watered down my longing for one too

Pawlus

Well there ya go.







You asked for it.

KonAaron Snake 

Great build...those shamans are bad ass!

Pawlus

I've heard a lot about how this bike is good for girls. Doesn't make me like it any less though!

KonAaron Snake 

FWIW, you aren't alone in your reaction. Hooray, more production bikes that shouldn't take more than 2 years of looking, at most, to find called grails

I just read these threads as what bikes do you like.

Answer - a lot.

Maxacceleration

I can drool over most any well set up bike, defining the period its was built in. A lot of cool steel out there.
Aluminum & CF don't always have the big eye candy effect, although many carbon fiber bikes are beautiful.

I wouldn't call this Raleigh USA bike a grail bike, but it seem to be rare (?). Russian titanium & 600 components other than a C Record crank for aesthetics. A mid 90's bike I had built & rode for many miles.
Flexy oddity bike, but I like the look of it.

ThermionicScott 

I do love these threads, when it gets down to it. I think I was just feeling a little grumpy at the time.

1Mule

My next bike is always my grail bike, it's currently a 23"/58cm Trek Elance. Always wanted one when I was younger and Trek was cranking them out, but never pulled the trigger on buying one.

seypat

That's not a pink bike. That's a chrome/charcoal bike with some pink accents. Nice looking bike, though. I thought you were talking about something like this:

https://lh4.ggpht.com/_YYUMOEFMnR4/TJ...0/IMG_1997.JPG

rekmeyata

I don't know but according to Trsnrtr he stated this: I broke a Gianni Motta, a Cinelli, an Eisentraut, two Nishikis, a Raleigh and I've probably forgotten a few. Anyway, all steel.
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Dennis T

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...r-sucks-3.html See post 52

Not sure what he's doing to his bikes, but I use to race steel bikes all the way up to a CAT 3 level in S Calif which meant a lot of mountain training and racing and never broke a frame nor knew any who did, and very few pro riders ever broke frames, but this guy supposedly breaks not one, not two, but 5 and maybe more he forgot about! I don't know, I scared now to ride any of my steel vintage bikes, including one that has over 160,000 miles of mostly training and racing in S Calif. it might blow apart like a pretzel.