General Clyde Nutrition, Health and Weight Loss Advice Thread
OK, here we go :D
I'm subscribing to this thread, so if any questions for me arise, I'll be happy to discuss aspect of diet, bariatric surgery and how said surgery requires modification of diet for endurance cycling or you can PM me, either one. I do need to state in advance that I will be relating from personal experience and experimentation. There isn't a lot of data about post bariatric endurance athletes, and in effect, I'm on the 'bleeding edge" here, with my surgeon and dietician tracking my data as well as myself. It won't ever be medical advice, but my best considered suggestion to use at your own risk. That said for the lawyers, let the games begin!
Tom, agreed on the point that there are individuals that have a natural ability to hold onto weight longer than others. My point however was just to illustrate that given a strick enough 'diet' anyone will lose weight.
My biggest concern is LBM (lean body mass) and what a lot of people fail to understand is that nothing is static in the body. They think its possible to lose fat by restricting calories and their LBM will remain the same while they burn off that pesky flab. It just isnt so and this is why all the low protein and exercise devoid diets will result in net weight loss, and usually as a % of body weight their fat% can actually climb, and in most cases it does, dramatically when they revert back to old eating habits because they have reduced their ability to burn calories.
Again, I am a little rusty at this and I really need to hit the books, but for the most part this is right ;)
A relatively simple way to calcualte how many calories you need is to calculate how heavy your LBM is. Remember its only your LBM that needs nutrition. Fat is just like a sweater, it adds to your total weight, but not to your caloric needs, other than the effort needed to carry it around.
There is something called your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) this is how many calories per hour you need to for regular function and maintenence.(F&M from now on)
When you wake up first thing in the morning you are at BMR1
So, if you weigh 100KGS and you are 30% fat, your LBM is 70KG
70KGS x 1 (BMR1= Being away but not moving) you need 70 cals an hour for F&M
BMR 2 - Sitting at the PC, reading
BMR 3 - Light work as you would see in an office or some light housework chores like dusting
BMR 4 - Jogging, high RPM low resistance cycling etc
BMR 5 - Weight training, heavy manual work
So, all you need to do is
1: Calculate what your BMR is.
2: Find the BMR level for a full 24 hours
3: Calculate total calorie needs
4: Translate these needs into Carbs, Protein and Fat grams per day
22:00 ~ 06:00 Sleep (Sleep is .9 of BMR1) If I weigh 100KGS and 30% fat that = 70KGS.
70KGS *8 (number of hours of sleep) *.9 = 504 calories for F&M
06:00~09:00 At the PC drinking coffee and catching up on work emaul ( I work at home)
140 (Remember its BMR2 so double your LBM number) * 3 = 420 calories
09:00~10:00 cycling, I run pretty fast so a BMR of 4 is about right, so 280 * 1 = 280 calories.
And so on, and go and calcualte total calorie needs for each day (of course each day is different, so work it out for a week)
If people are interested I will add more, please let me know.
As you saw earlier, my intake is based on my activity level with a variable scale of calories in. An average person, sedentary, maintains body weight at ~+/- 1500 kcals (1000 kcals = 1 food calorie)/day. Unfortunately, most peoples diet averages around 4500 or more. In addition, it's the wrong kind of calories. Too many carbs and transfats and not enough protein and fats. The body does need fats and carbs though for proper function.
Here is an excellent link for nutritional data, by the way!
Based on what I have learned in my Nursing studies, Mr Kimball is providing correct information here. It gives a very complete picture including the physiological reasons for which nutrients and why!
Tom, I am not going to read that link info until I have finished, this way I can see how much I remembered :)
OK, So I am now assuming you have calculated how many calories you expend for each 24hr period. You will have a number but you are probably not sure what you are going to do with it.
Lets take 2000 as a figure, its cited on a lot of things as 'normal' whatever that is and its usually way off what we actually need. Before I forget about nutritional info on food packaging let me talk about RDA.
RDA (Reccomended Daily Allowance) is a figure that will stop you from suffering from an ailment due to the lack of something (like scurvy) it will not, let me say it again, it will not be sufficient to allow you to make the most of your training and weight loss goals.
There is a much better figure called the PDA (Performance Daily Allowance) these are figures that you should be looking at, like 3-5g (3000-5000mg of Vit C a day) Vit C other than being a Pirates best friend (after rum of course) is instrumental in connective tissue repair, something all Clydes should be interested as 225lbs+ is going to hurt something at some time. Let me get back to you with some PDA's at a later date as they are not quite as important as this topic.
Calories and where should they come from
OK, so back to the 2000 Calories.
Depending on your goals and activity you will have to select from a combination of fuels and building blocks.
A sprinter for example has much different nutritional needs than a long distance runner or a commuter in a flat place doing a RT of 10 miles.
For the average Joe, at least initially its probable better to go with the 1:2:3 approach this means
Fat:Protein Protein:Carbs Carbs Carbs
2000 / 6 (1+2+3) = 333.3
Fat 333.3 Calories
Protein 666.6 Calories
Carbs 999.9 Calories
All together they add up to your daily requirement.
So how many grams?
Fats are 9 calories per gram (irrespective of what kind of fat)
Protein and Carbs are 4 per gram
*Booze is 7 per gram ;)
So, in our example you would be left with
Fat (333.3) / 9 = 37g per day
Protein (666.6) / 4 = 165.65g per day
Carbs (999.9) / 4 = 250g per day
So, as this is the amount of calories for BMR requirements and F&M we need a few more to facilitate growth. Taking in more calories that we need for F&M is called being on a Positive calorie diet, the other way is a Negative calorie diet.
So, for every kilo of LBM you are add .5g of protein and Carbs per training day (and only on training days)
Protein should be 165.65g per day in our example, you need another .5g per KG of LBM, so an additional 35g is required making it up to 200.65g
A quick way to get quality protein (I need to go into this in some detail too) EAS, MetRx and other bodybuilding supplement companies make excellent products.
EAS make a product called Myoplex, it has 42g of protein. You need (in this example) 200g a day
2 granola bars
Pre work out snack (At least 2 hours before your workout 3-4 is better)
Oatmeal pancake with honey
Post workout meal
Pasta & lean meat (fish if you can stand it)
Just before bed,
This should give you about 200g of protein. With all of these meals you should be drinking at least 1 pint of water.
As the meals are low fat, they will get digested a lot faster than, say, a pizza. The water will help it along too and you will easily find yourself ready for each meal.
OK lots more to talk about, like Essential amino acids, ATP/CP, supplements, rest.
My vitamin supplementation is rather high..this is due to malabsorption issues. B1, B6, and B12 in particular. I'm taking a triple dose chewable multivitamin, under Dr instruction, as well as 100 mg/day respectively B1, B6 and 1000mcg B12 sublingually. 200 mg Ca+/day and 2-2.5 grams protein/Kg body mass. C is at 1.5 grams/day. I have bloodwork done every 6 mos to monitor vitamin levels and dosage is calculated off of these blood tests. Thus far, I have no problems, and I hope to avoid complication like....oh, Pernicious Anemia, for example!
As to caloric needs, I have a workout schedule and can fairly accurately predict intake needs. I am probably monitored more closely than a million dollar racehorse!:eek:
Protein source is meat as well as whey supplementation and veg protein.
How does one measure LBM besides going into a tank at the Dr.'s office?
This stuff is great by the way.
I have to do my lifting now (Hate mondays its always the heaviest day because of the weekend rest :( )
But I hope to add some stuff later today on protein
nb. When I say 'you' I am not talking to anyone in particular, I hope this will help everyone.
Tom, I noticed you didnt mention B3 in the list is there a reason for this? I have read that large doses a la PDA amounts will make an athlete burn glycogen at an accelerated rate, its great for sprinters and 1RM guys but the slow and steady out there need to take care.
Are you (Tom) on Chromium (like Chromate) at all?
You cant, its best to be honest and err on the side of caution. If you look like the Michelin man, when you sit down but are not slouching, think around 40% to be conservative.
On a side note, I ran into a Canadian girl that was in the same field as me and we were talking about fat measurements (dont use the electric stuff, they rely on hydration, if you are a world class sprinter with about 8% but you havent had a drink all day it will list you as obese, its a waste of time. Best to use the mirror and be honest with yourself)
She said that they had a cadaver that was dontated for scientific use, they did the water/volume displacement thing and everything else they could think of. They they cut up the body and stripped off as much fat as they could find. The result? They were wayyyyyyyyyy off, like I said use the mirror, it never lies! :D
B3 levels are normal, and I am taking 3X normal dose in the multivitamins of B3. That's the reason I didn't mention it, because it's built into my dosage as a hidden dose. Good check though!
Questions about caloric intake. I've heard that if you don't take in enough calories your body will go into a starvation mode and will pack on the weight quicker if you take more calories then you need.
How do you calculate that 'absolute low' vs enough calories to maintain weight vs just enough calories to not starve but lose weight? Those seem to be holy grail numbers that I'd love to know.
I'm 262 right now, 6-1 with a large frame. I've used a site like this which measures activity level,. what you want to do, and frame size to determine how many calories you should take in. Mine - I put in sleeping for 8 and sedentary for 16 (which super low balls what I do but so be it) and voila I should have 2600/85/300/64 of Calories/Fat/Carbs/Protein (30-60-10 ratio). That's also the lowest of any calculator I've tried - others peg me between 3000-4000 (fitday actually counts my daily calories burned at 4000 bless its heart). Once I start adding in the stuff like biking it shoots up to 3500. Even keeping myself below 2500 when not biking (and when I do bike I usually eat less than I've burned) I haven't lost anything since June/July or so.
So what am I doing wrong or what I do I need to adjust? I keep track of what I do on fitday but I feel like something else needs to happen. And also after a ride when I'm hungry do I have to still keep below that amount? How much of what you burned should you replenish?
Other things that can sabotage you: To high of an intensity of exercise, this can cause you to build muscle mass as fast as you drop the fat! Net gain healthwise, but no loss of weight! Concentrate on cardio levels of activity rather than really hard intervals, for example.
EDIT: For weight loss: Protein: Minimum 1 gram/kg body mass. Some (limited) fat intake, eat veggies and take a multivitamin.
So am I taking in enough calories? Just seems really high.
When I ride I do tend to ride hard. On my last 30 mile trip around the city (2:42 mins) I spent 1:15 above my 60-80% above my max HR, 15 mins below, and 1:12 in between. Should I back off?
And how many calories should I take in as recovery?
Starving yourself will cause a loss of LBM. A loss of LBM will result in your calorie burning capabilities to be lessened (you now have a 1.5L Engine instead of the 5L V8 you had before) Also, as Tom mentioned severely reduced calorie intake will slow your BMR. However exercise and a reduced calorie intake (negative calorie diet) will offset some of that loss. Its the women that eat a couple of carrots and 10calorie cup-a-soup that really hurt themselves with this sort of nonsense. The trouble is that not that many are really willing to work at it. Losing weight, or rather losing fat is about 100X more difficult that it is to put on.
So, to answer your question (as best I can)
Work out your calorie needs, then work out your target heart rate for fat burn, get a heart monitor and exercise that that intensity.
If you go too fast and put too much demand for power you will only be burning up glycogen (large glucose molecules stored in the muscle, this is what actually gives an athlete that 'toned' look) You need to work at a reduced rate in order to give your body the time to refine the fat down into a fuel it can use. Its a little like having an oil well in your yard, you actually need some time from pump to tank to refine it. Think of glycogen as 95 octane.
I wanted to talk a bit about this while is so important, so here is the quick and dirt version.
Most of us have heard the term 'complete protein' but what exactly is it?
A complete protein is one that contains all 8 of the essential amino acids.
Amino acids are the building block for making stuff in the body. When your body needs to make something (muscle for example) it gathers a lof a amino acids together in a chain and Voila! You now have a new muscle fiber. There is a catch though. In every single chain you will need 1 or more of the essential amino acids. Think of these as the corner peices in a jigsaw, without them you cant complete the puzzle, if its not complete then its not made, so the thing your body wanted to make is put on hold. The worst thing is that if it cant use the amino acids it has it wont waste them, they will get turned into fat and stored.
So, if you are taking in a lot of protein from a vegetable source it may not be a complete protein, i.e. one or more of the essential amino acids are missing. Vegetarians will combine 2 or more veggies to actaully get what they need to actually ingest a meal that has all of the 8. Any meat has all 8, but there is another twist. Of the 8 3 are more inportant than the rest, these are Valine, Leucine and isoleucine.
These are more important that the other 5 because you body will use them as a source of energy, which is strange as the body usually totally reserves proteins for building and repair. So, you must be careful when you make your calcualtions, as you need more of these 3 for energy and repair/growth. I cant remember off hand, but one of the three needs to be at least double the quantity of the other two (told you I was a bit rusty ;) )
Another problem is that a trained individual will burn more of the 3 listed above at rest than a sedentary individual so that should also be factored in.
Current weight: 262 ~ 118.84 kg (the results are really funny if you don't do this step :D ). Assuming 30% BMI = 83.188
Assume 7 hours of sleep: 83.188 * 7 * .9= 524.08
Assume 17 hours of sitting at the PC (man I hope not, but this should give me a lowball): 83.188 * 2 (BMR 2, right?) * 17 = 2828.39
So if I sleep for 7 hours, then sit at the computer without moving or cycling for the rest of the day I'd burn 2,828 calories?
If that's the case and I want to lose weight then I'd want to take in 2,328 calories? Where's the starvation mark?
When I worked out my HR I wound up with a max HR of 186, a resting of 48 (though I calculated everything with 52 since I couldn't duplicate 48) which put my 60% at 132 and my 80% at 159 according to this site. Within a ride how long should I stay within those parameters to lose weight? The whole time?
Take in 200g of protein a day and 300g of carbs, cut out all the optional fat (like butter, spreads and sauces)
Make sure your calories from the carbs are from stuff low on the glycemic index (like oatmeal)
Get 6 meals a day with 1 pint of water with each meal, its going to make you a little queezy until you get used to all that liquid.
Do 2 rides a day, each of about 20K and try to keep THR at your optimum for fat burn.
Do your morning ride on an empty stomach (but drink as much water as you like) when you wake up in the morning you are in a carbo depleted state, if you can keep to the THR for fat burn, you will be burning the stuff you dont want from the get go.
For your evening ride, try to time it so that your last meal was at least 3 hours before, this way blood sugar is getting low again. Post workout a small amount of complex carbs and a big protein shake. Try and get more sleep (8+)
The starvation mark is anything below your daily requirement based on your calorie needs for your activity level. You want to get fuel for cycling from your fat reserves, the food you take in should just meet recovery and function needs. This is usually called a negative calorie diet, it is useful for losing fat as yuur body will need to source enery from some place in the even of you not ingesting anything. You have to really take care with the loss of LBM though. This is why its preferable to build up the LMB and that in itself will increase fat burn 24/7
Simon, looks like we may have a pretty good partnership going on this thread!
This is great stuff guys, thanks!
The water isn't a problem - I drink that much routinely (finish off a few bottles of 1.5 liters of water a day (I can gulp one in a shot))
I do opt for whole wheat vs white flour (brown rice, whole wheat pasta, etc...) Plus turkey meat for protein. Been hooked on Grape-Nuts too lately.
OK, because I'm dense and like to double check things:
Based on my calculations above I should never drop below 2,828 calories (my starvation mark from above) unless I drop weight/increase muscle mass? And if I do cycle (thereby increasing my activity level) then that number needs to increase by whatever my activity dictates?
On your off days (if you have one) you can drop about 50% of your carb calories, but maintain the protein. If you are feeling a little fuzzy eat some fruit.
The reason for this is that the brain is Glucose powered. Glucose is stored in the muscles (as glycogen) and in the liver. For some reason fructose (fruit sugar) will preferentially replenish liver glycogen, and its from the liver that the brain gets most of its fuel.
Tom, yes it almost feels like tennis :) Just who's serve is it anyway?
Air, that's what I come up with as well. Good choices, by the way. Whole Grain Oatmeal is a good cereal choice as well for your carb source. The goal is definitely to get you to power high energy activity off of your fat reserves.
Here is a calculator engine to help you plan calorie requirements.
It makes allowance for terrain, wind and bicycle type and riding position. It also helps you to calculate your wattage output, which is as good a standard as HR for metabolic activity, due to the fact that there is a definite correlation between wattage and HR as well as brake horsepower your body produces. By thwe way, if you wonder, a cyclist in excellent condition produces approx.~1/2HP +/-. If you are a math geek, there is also a tutorial on the Speed and power calc. to show you the math used to compute the algorithms used to run the script.
Oatmeal has been my fuel of choice for a long time. Its easy to make nice sweet snacks too that are not messy and keep great if you cant get to a fridge.
Get a cup of Oatmeal (Regular Quaker stuff that looks like horse food) and throw it in a food blender to make a coarse flour. Put that in a cereal bowl with just enough milk to make a consistency like plaster of Paris. Then add a couple of spoons of natural honey and stir it in well. Put the sticky mix into a non stick fry pan with no oil. Tamp it down to about 8mm thick and put it on a low heat. Cook and flip and then slide it out of the pan (it should have been dry/stick enough that it should leave no mess at all) then slice it up like a Pizza and there you have about 4-500 calories of perfect biking fuel ;)
I am down in fat, I dont know how much but when I lean to the side I now have a small roll instead of a 4" bar of solid flab. My legs have come back nicely too and feel solid again. I am on target for 6lbs of fat loss a month so that I dont lose my upper body size that has taken years to build.
This thread has been great for my motivation too, not that I am a shirker with exercise, but it does make me extra strict with myself.
If you guys are looking for a great place for protein I reccoment bodybuilding.com these guys are cheap as hell and fast with the shipping. I have no association with them other than being a very happy customer.
Anybody here ever use 'Eat To Live' book as a guide to good nutrition?
I was using that last year when I was losing the weight....kinda got off track and need to get back on again. Eat To Live should be required reading in high school IMO. For the record, for those of you who aren't familiar, it is not a fad diet book. It is simple nutrition facts and how to eat properly to be healthy...in fact, it does not focus on just weight loss, but things like cancer and diabetes as well.
The proper nutrition is a "mostly" vegetarian diet....it recommends keeping something like 10% of your calories to meat and animal byproducts. The rest is vegetarian. It also focuses on non-processed foods which mostly contain all these chemicals our bodies are not used to.
Anyway.....a GREAT book and well worth the read for anybody wanting to lose weight and/or be healthy.
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