shog

Completely off topic but any Clydes that are also Kayakers ? I did a lot of canoeing in my younger days and I always wanted a kayak. I'm thinking of using that as a reward when I meet my weight goals in the near future (aka next spring). I'm looking for some advice on what to get and more importantly what not to get. I would mostly be using it for day trips and flat water paddling, creeks, small rivers, lakes, etc.

Thanks

Shog

Please feel free to PM as this is really off topic for the forum

Air

I do!

I have two - I can't remember the name but I bought them from a canoe/kayaking rental place. The used was 350, the new one 450. 12', weighs about 45 pounds. I've done trips from a solo 20 mile trip up in Maine down the Damariscotta (free whitewater at the end - oops!) as well as into the Long Island Sound and across the Great South Bay (on a windy day 3-5' waves). 12' is a good length for open waters and rivers, maneuverable enough but still stable. I couldn't do a full roll it but had friends who could without thinking about it. That was partly a technique issue and partly a Clyde one

It is bare bones - no waterproof compartments but there are bungee cords on top (a MUST!). I usually strapped a small bilge pump to the top in case I was sitting in water after a while (drips down your arms, under the skirt). Get a skirt too, may save you if you start to tip (more than once I was so thankful I had that on and strapped in!). A quick course in how to get water out of it if you have to bail out and other techniques is really useful - check around for a place that offers them.

The longer the length of the boat, the faster the boat, the less stable it is (more susceptible to tipping). On a wide lazy lake no problem. On a narrow river with some current and you get the tip caught in a branch and you're over before you realize it.

I'd suggest getting one you can carry by yourself. The longer sea kayaks that are fiberglass tend to be heavy and awkward (18-21' long). Compartments add to the weight but if you're thinking of camping it's a really nice feature to have.

Also sounds like you don't need to mess with rudders - again, the more complicated the more likely something can break. [ed - There is a mini rudder that can be useful when you need to go straight - just a piece of plastic that hinges. Turn around, pop it down with your paddle, and when you go over shallow water it will pop up without damaging anything[/ed]

Equipment:

Spend a little extra and get lighter paddles. Your arms will thank you. Get used to using your entire upper body so you don't tire your arms out. Gloves are also useful, your fingers will get tired. They sell straps that attach from the paddle to your boat in case it drops - a cheap and potentially day saving accessory

Helmets:Bikes::Vest:Kayaks. Get a vest that is meant for kayaking (shorter so it doesn't rub against the side) and get one that's comfortable. Take it off when you get to the car. Might be a calm day with not a cloud in the sky. Wear the vest.

Seal Bag. Can put stuff like a cell phone or GPS in there.

Storage: Never store it upside down. The bottom will sag and you'll have a bubble that will feel like you're dragging buoys behind you. Easy to make a cradle out of 2x4s for your house and they sell kayak carriers for cars. Even driving have it on its side.

I'd rent a few different ones from rental places and get a feel for the size that you're comfortable in and how it handles. When I took a spin in mine I knew that it was perfect. Up to that point I tried out two others but the price, weight, and feel was great. I'm 280 but was 260 when I got mine. As long as you can fit your butt and waist into the cockpit comfortably you should be fine with almost any entry level one.

solveg

I've had a few kayaks... the ones that I bought for kayaking with my dogs would be Clyde-worthy, but not a lot of fun. The first one was a WHITE, which was an entry level kayak so it had a big cockpit and was stabile. It was cheap, but I don't think they make them anymore.

The last kayak I bought (Old Town Loon) was for the express purpose of kayaking with a Bernese Mountain Dog or a Pyrenese in the cockpit with me. So it had to be huge* and stabile. It is a piece of work to go anywhere in it. If I tipped, I don't think I could turn it over.

Anyway, Stabile=no fun and hard work, so you basically just putz around shore. Good work-out, though, and it's still fun to be in* the water instead of above it. But I decided I should have just bought a canoe instead. It would be more versatile, and the piggy kayaks don't feel like Kayaks, anyway.

If you can find a dagger or something that you can fit into, you should be just fine in it! I don't know how the handling would be different--I haven't had a whitewater Kayak in 15 years. If you go to REI, I'll bet they're all on sale right now. They have tons of recreational kayaks with larger cockpits. If they have any with a drop skeg, that might be helpful.

v1k1ng1001

I've only ever owned a whitewater kayak. Now that is a fun sport! If I end up living somewhere amenable to the sport I'll buy another one.

jboyd

Well, something I know about

Kayaking is my passion. Cycling is my habit. As a matter of fact i just walked in from a 7 hour drive from a great day of whitewater in E. TN

It is just like cycling. There is no one boat. You need different boats for different paddling venues. I suggest that you really focus on what type of paddling you think you will do the most, and purchase based on that. But, if you enjoy it, and you will. Expect to end up with a fleet.

Most newbie yakers head to the REC boats first. That is cool. A few to look at are, the Wilderness System Pungo, As Solveg mentioned the Old Town Loon or the Dirigo are good boats too. Another possibility is the Dagger Approach. It has a high side of 280# and is considered a Hybrid if you will. It has considerable "rocker" compared to most Rec boats, allowing you to turn in moving water and it also has a drop skeg for flat water tracking. It will never be the perfect whitewater boat, but it tries and it will serve as a fair flat water yak but will never be the best for that either.

Here is a site that can help you. There is a section on reviews that is a great. There is also a discussion forum and you can ask those folks directly about this. Be warned, that group has some crazies in it and a newbie can get eaten up pretty quick. They are nothing like the solid (NICE) folks here in Clydeville.
https://www.paddling.net/

Feel free to contact me by email and I will give you my phone # and if you would like I would be happy to talk to you about this. I wish I would have had access to me 7 years ago. I have bought tons of gear over the years and much was trial and error.

Good Luck
Jay

divingbiker

Last month I bought my first kayak--a Hurricane Santee Sport 116. It's got a big cockpit (I have thoughts of taking my dog with me); the Wilderness Systems Pungo has a similar cockpit, if I remember correctly. I felt very cramped in some of the boats.

It's made of ABS plastic instead of polyethylene so it's very light (35 lb). I can get it on the car myself fairly easily, which is why I bought this one.

I've only had it in the water once, but so far I love it!

Janice

me in kayak.jpg

JumboRider

Kayaking looks like a blast. When you go to the wider cockpits why wouldn't you simply go with a canoe? Asking because I don't really understand kayaking at all, but have been on a canoe numerous times.

jboyd

That is actually not a bad question. A canoe is great for hauling loads including dogs, kids & gear. A lot of depends on personal comfort. Canoeing is really a kneeling sport and yakin is a sitting activity. I know most of you will say that you sit in a canoe, but actually most kneel.

Also, and this may be hard to understand, all of us clydes who first get into kayaking think that we must have and will always want the "BIG" Cockpit for comfort. At first that is true, but as time goes by that big cockpit becomes a problem. There is actually a good reason for the smaller keyhole cockpits and it is not what you think. Most think that kayaking is an act of moving a paddle through the water, but it is really much more. To really get the true and efficient effect of a kayak, you use your hips and legs as well. The wider cockpits make that very difficult.

Jay

solveg

Yes, jboyd... the same thing I like about biking is what I like about kayaking. There's a feeling of unbelievable gracefulness as your vehicle responds to your slightest body motion. In a non-recreational kayak, you can simply lean and turn around. It's the greatest feeling in the world. I've been practicing going no-hands on a bike doing weaving, and it's a similar sensation. It's... the best.

Recreational Kayaks are fun, they're lighter than entry model canoes so you can haul them around yourself, and they'll give you a "taste" of what kayaking is like. But they're kind of like different creatures than normal kayaks.... as different as canoes are from kayaks.

And there's lots* of things to buy for them as you use them... the hobby can be as cheap or as expensive as biking. The fold-boats are expensive but attractive from a storage option, but they're a pain to put together so the tendency is to not get them set up right away in the spring and you miss out. It's best just to get a normal one unless you get serious about it and park it somewhere. Get a cover for it to keep the spiders out!!!!!!!!!!!

Whitewater kayaks are fun, ocean kayaks cruise fast. The first thing you have to decide on is if you're going to "put miles on the kayak". In a recreational kayak, you can put hours on it, but not miles.

The second thing to think about is the solitary nature of it. Again, it's like biking. If you adore the time by yourself, then a kayak is great. But I find myself doing some other activity because I'm with someone and they can't come with. Or if they have a kayak, I can't keep up with my recreational model. Hence my wanting to bring my dog with me... of course, I have a dog trailer for my bike, too! I get bored with myself pretty easily.

What I don't understand about my Loon is how to you right yourself? That's why I never go out too deep in it... it actually seems dangerous to me if you can't do an eskimo roll.

jboyd

Solveg, there are some who can roll a loon and many of the other Rec boats, but without the proper flotation and neo skirts and thigh braces which most of those boat lack, it is almost impossible for the average paddler to roll.

you are absolutely correct that each paddler has to determine their reasons beyond the physical as well. I know many who would rather be alone when they paddle. Depending on the crowd, i feel that way too sometimes but for the most part I am a people person (as long as it is the right people). Since all I currently paddle is whitewater, I NEED people.

I am on the low side of boat inventory right now. I only have five boats. 2 Whitewater, 2 Rec and 1 Canoe. The Dagger Mamba is the only boat I have used for the past 2 years. It is a wonderful whitewater boat that covers up a lot of really bad paddling skills

Something left out of this thread that may be of interest to others considering PADDLE sports is the complementary advantage of Paddling as an addition to Peddling. All I have done for the last 7 years is PADDLE. When I started PEDDLING this year I realized how out of shape I was from the waist down. Since June, my wind has become great, and my legs, well, they are just darn good looking legs now

So, PEDDLING & PADDLING are natural complements to each other.

Jay

shog

Wow thanks folks - what a great group - you have all given me some good pointers. Now time to start googling and calling up a couple of local places. I've got about 40lbs to my goal so plenty of time to shop and ask some more questions <g>. Now we can go back to talking about bicycling !

Thanks


Shog

lil brown bat

Another paddler here, primarily whitewater (I've got a whitewater river in front of my house), but I've done coastal sea kayaking and also some quietwater. A lot of people have pointed out the similarities or the complementary nature of kayaking vs. cycling -- now I'm going to throw a dash of water on things and point out one important difference: cycling does not take place in an inherently lethal environment, kayaking does. Sure, cycling involves risk, and people do get killed doing it, but if you get knocked cold while riding your bike, you're not going to die simply from being unconscious on the pavement. If you're unconscious and unable to help yourself in water, and there are not others nearby with the necessary abilities to help you, the experience will be fatal. That will be true as long as human beings can drown in three inches of water. Thus, even if you only want to paddle easy water, it's wise to start out kayaking with some serious thoughts about safety. This is a sport where people get killed on the bunny slope.

To add to jboyd's point, a kayak that is sold as being "for everything" is probably good for very little. Choose a kayak not just based on what you like to do, but on what type of water is readily accessible to you. Also, shy away from a boat that feels super-comfortable and stable the first time you sit in it -- that's almost always a sign of a boat that you will quickly outgrow. They do well enough for people who paddle once in a blue moon and thus don't ever really accumulate much in the way of skills, but for someone who paddles regularly, the learning curve is rapid enough that you'll want something more.

Do not try to teach yourself. Get instruction -- ideally from someone who's a certified instructor and thus has demonstrated good paddling skills and good teaching skills, but a friend who's both a good paddler and good teacher will do too. Depending on the type of paddling you plan to do, you may not need very much instruction to get going, but you will frustrate yourself and probably develop considerable bad habits if you try to self-teach, and also stand a good chance of putting yourself into risky situations as well. One big advantage of taking lessons is that you usually don't have to provide your own boat. This gives you the opportunity to try several boats over the course of a series of lessons, which does more than any amount of product research in helping you buy the right boat.

Do not paddle alone. Some skilled and experienced paddlers do this sometimes, but they have the judgment to know when they're well within their limits and the skills to recognize developing problems. As a beginner, this is a situation you should absolutely avoid, and also try to avoid being with someone who's totally inexperienced. Stuff happens on the water, to everybody. It will happen to you, no matter how careful you are. Self-rescue skills are critical, but there will be times when they don't do the job by themselves. I cannot count the times I've casually helped someone out (sometimes not so casually) or witnessed a helping hand, no big deal, but if the hand hadn't been there it would have been. If you get into trouble from which you cannot rescue yourself, and nobody sees you, the results will almost certainly be fatal. You'll have more fun and learn more good places to go if you go with other, experienced paddlers, anyway.

Do not skimp on your safety gear. Your PFD must fit properly, which means it will be a lot tighter than most people think they should be. If you buy a decent PFD, it will still be comfortable, just snug. If you are running whitewater, get a whitewater helmet. Wear these at all times, no matter how well you think you can swim. If you have to ask if you need to wear a PFD, look down and see if you are in a boat.

I second the rec for a decent paddle. A crappy paddle leads to a less efficient stroke, tires you out quicker, and can often result in repetitive stress injuries (speaking as someone who's had tennis elbow in both elbows).

Dress right. You can get away with wearing cotton on the bike, sometimes -- in a kayak, it's a baaad idea.

Have fun with it,

jboyd

Everything that Lil Brown Bat Said: Can I get an Amen!

He is right regarding safety. I have more time and money invested in safety, than I do my boat. I have taken multiple Swift-water Rescue courses, and just returned this weekend from a trip that included an update of my CPR. That whole "NO OXYGEN" thing can be a bummer in this sport. As far as the PFD goes, it is a torture chamber that you learn to love. Almost everyone I paddle with has years of experience, and you can tell when there is a newbie in the group, because he will be the one standing "NEAR" the water without a PFD. The rest of us are so conditioned to wear one that we can't imagine not. And the subject of "what to wear" is constantly debated, but the reality is that proper clothing can mean the difference between a great time, or a really expensive funeral expense. This is not thrown out there to scare you off, but it is a reality.

I have nearly $500 invested in (2) paddles. You all know the difference between a Boxmart bike, and a professional brand LBS bike, well, a good paddle is the same. It can make all the difference in your experience.

On the subject of INSTRUCTION. I have been paddling for seven years, and 4 years on whitewater. Every year I take a level of instruction that allows me to advance my skills. Not unlike biking, paddling is really a finesse activity. Learning the proper techniques and the time and expense needed to learn can make all the difference in how you see this sport.

Now, GO GET THAT BOAT PICKED OUT

Jay

shog

Found someone in a club I belong to that has a touring Dagger he is going to let me try this weekend. Going to go out onto a local lake and use the beach area so I can give it a try. He's experienced so hopefully will keep me out of trouble. Going to have to go out and find a new PFD between now and then as my current one doesn't fit well. And thanks for the safety warnings, I've been around water most of my life and have a tremendous respects for it, more than I care to remember sometimes.

Scott

Velo Dog

I'm a 240-pound sometime paddler, pretty much flat water (all we have around here except some tiny little streams that are runnable for a few weeks in spring). I started with an Ocean Kayak sit-on-top, a Malibu II tandem you can also paddle solo (I had to convince my wife it was family recreation, but as I expected, nobody ever wanted to go but me). It's a lot of fun, a good family boat, but unwieldy for one person.
A year or so later I got a Wilderness Systems Pungo 140, and that's been really good for what I use it for--general paddling, occasional lake fishing, once in awhile a trip to the coast for some mild surf. It's stable but fairly maneuverable, tracks well and can carry a buncha stuff besides me.

lil brown bat

Scott, that's great. I assume your friend will be boating with you. Stay within easy swimming distance of the shore this time, and in the future until you have strong assisted-rescue skills at a minimum. This means the ability, with someone else's help, to right your boat, climb into it, and empty it of water while you're out of your depth. It's tempting to get out of your depth once you start getting into how fast and easily you can make a kayak go, but remember, a kayak is a very tippy craft, and if you get yourself out there you gotta get yourself back. If you can't get back into the boat, it'll be a long and unpleasant swim. For PFDs, stay away from general-purpose and waterskiing PFDs. Stohlquist, Lotus and Kokatat make good stuff, MTI and Extrasport seem to be okay but I've got no personal experience. REI has a Kokatat vest on sale here that looks like it would be a decent touring vest, and they've got it in bigger sizes.

Also, here is an article that talks a little about paddling and stroke technique. A lot of it will be greek now, but you might want to read it and try to take away a few simple things (relaxed grip, good posture, reach far forward, etc.). Hopefully your friend will also be able to give you some useful pointers.

Have fun and report back!

shog

Yea, he is going to be there, the beach area is really shallow in this lake so it will be a good place to give this a try just to see if I want to take it further. If that works ok then we may go up into the backwater area of this lake (also very shallow, lake is a sediment trap for local farmers). This is a more of try it and see if I want to keep going with it. If not I'll go looking for a better canoe than I have access to now as I know I can handle that.

Scott

shog

Quick follow up to this. I went the weekend and gave my friends Kayak a try. I gotta get me one of these. I did end up in the water at one point :-( We were in very shallow water and I stuck my paddle into the bottom and over rotated. Dang it was cold <G>

Shog

jboyd

I hope you have a good job. Just like the bikes, the boat bug is BAD (in a good way

Here is a link to a forum that also has a classified forum for used kayaks and canoes and related gear. Used kayaks are usually the best way to go. Since there is really no moving parts, a used boat is just a new boat with scratches, and scratches are GOOD. They mean you have been having fun. A good used boat is usually about 50-60% the value of new.
https://www.paddling.net/Classifieds/

Good luck and keep us posted.

Jay

lil brown bat

Of course you did. Kayaking is a wet sport. If anyone ever gave you the impression that you could go kayaking and stay dry, they were lying. You can stay dry in a powerboat, in a sailboat maybe, in a rowboat possibly...in a kayak, no. You will flip and then you will either swim or you will roll. Dry hair is not a badge of honor.

FWIW, "I have got to get me one of these!!!", a la Will Smith, is exactly what I yelled ten seconds into my very first kayaking experience.

Welcome to another wonderful life-enriching experience. SYOTR (see you on the river),

StephenH

I asked my brother- he is maybe 6'-5", 270-300 lbs or so- "Pelican kayak, a Viper model."
He's been using it on coastal rivers...ie, calm water, not white water stuff.

solveg

My response was "Where has this been all my life!!! I'll take it!"

BigBlueToe

There used to be a website by a guy who was big - a definite Clyde. He had ratings for several boats, as to whether they were "Clyde-worthy" or not. I don't have time to look for it this morning, but maybe someone else knows the address.

I have a Chesapeake 17 - a plywood kayak that I built from a kit. It wasn't hard (took about 3 months working evenings and weekends), and it's a nice boat. It's also very "Clyde-worthy". A friend of mine with a smaller boat - another plywood homebuilt from Pygmy - tried mine and said, "This thing rides like a Cadillac!", referring to how large and spacious it was.

superslomo

The better sea kayaks I've paddled in on occasion are much less forgiving of poor body position. The recreational/beginner oriented boats were much more stable when the upper body and lower body motions created instability.

jboyd

The guy that BIGBLUETOE is talking about is Wes Boyd (no relation). I went to his old site and it redirected me to a weird affiliate site, so I didn't copy it here. Really, if you just go to the common manufacturers websites and go to the product specs you can see which boats fit your need and size. Also, it really does not hurt to be a little over the weight range on a kayak. Performance is cut down a bit, but since you have no history or baseline, you will not notice what you don't know.

Again, https://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/Kayaks.html is a great research site.

Good Luck
Jay