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Thread: Fats

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    Air
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    Fats

    This may turn into a lively discussion but then so be it

    What should we look at in terms of fat? If we subscribe into the calorie is just a calorie theory then the types of fats should be inconsequential to any sort of weight loss or gain and actually the ratios should also not matter either. If the theory is more along a high protein diet then the type of fat also shouldn't matter. But we hear about using olive oil and staying away from animal fats in cooking along with the dangers of saturated fat for weight loss/gain (not to mention heart disease).

    For example - I had an avocado earlier. I'm contemplating having another - but according to ye olde fitday one avocado has 27 grams of fat. Having another will sky rocket my fat intake for the day and already it will be hard to stay under the limit (trying to stay below 65g). In terms of 'good vs bad' fat though it's much better than saying having a small steak. If I don't care about the types of food (as in a calorie is just a calorie) then I could easily have another since I'm way under my calories for the day and not really care about the ratios (of fat-carb-protein). If the ratios are important than having another would be a bad thing.

    Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    Having another will sky rocket my fat intake for the day and already it will be hard to stay under the limit (trying to stay below 65g).

    65g? Wimp.

    If everything goes as planned, I should hit 101g today (36% of my calorie intake). But only 17g is saturated fat. I guess that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

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    Well, it takes more energy to burn a fat molecule than it does to burn a sugar or more complex carbohydrate molecule. Thus, limiting fat intake without increasing your exercise at a fat-burning level isn't that good.

    All the talk about fats/carbs/sugars has it's good and bad points, but burning more calories than you intake is the key to losing weight.

    Having a decently well-rounded diet is also relatively important in terms of genereal health. Too much of anything is not really a good thing, be it carbs, fats, sugars, whatever.
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    Air,
    Your discussion makes sense, however, it is not necessarily just "fat" it is the type of fat that seems to e the issue. For example, fat from fish (the omegas) are good for us. The fat from Oreos (which used to be the "bad" fats may still be "bad". You eating an avocado is not bad, it is natural. I think the other issue is "natural fats" vs processed or synthetic fats. I am not sure where I am going with all this but the bottom line is not all fats are alike. Our body does need fat, just the right kind like you find in natural food.
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    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    It's the type, definitely! For example, Butter is better than Margarine (except for the Olive Oil type, or transfat free margarines, you know the heart smart stuff), because it's a natural fat that most people can assimilate easily.The exception, of course, is if you're lactose intolerant......

    Omega 3 fats = good
    Natural fats in food, in correct balance = good.

    Transfats = TERRIBLE! Margarine was invented to make Turkeys fatter for slaughter, believe it or not, and it caused a higher % of early mortality in Turkeys from Coronary Artery Disease. (I'm not kidding here! ) Traditional margarine is nearly a plastic compound.
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    Air
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    (Sorry Tom, but you know these questions are coming now )

    OK - so when you say 'good' and 'terrible' does that relate to weight loss or just heart disease?

    If a calorie is a calorie then 2 grams of Omega 3 fats should be processed the same as 2 grams of Natural fats and 2 grams of transfats. Does it?

    Also if a calorie is a calorie then the fat that's taken in shouldn't have a bearing on weight losss/gain, right?

    Going back to the original hypothetical - if I decrease the 'bad fats' the same amount as I increase the 'good fats' then have I done anything positive or negative for weight gain or only for my circulatory system? I would think that if the good fats are processed easier than they would be less calories which I don't think is the case.

    [I know I've said this before but for anyone new to my questions I was a theoretical math major...need hard guidelines that balance equations for me to accept it and be happy. Sorry in advance! )

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    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    From the Cardiac standpoint...... What good does it do you to have a buff bod and die of Coronary Artery disease?

    Transfats process differently and contribute to the bad cholesterol and plug up the ol' arteries.

    Alternatively, the other more metabolizable fats contribute to total cholesterol, but the good kind, mostly. It also helps break up the bad cholesterol.
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    "A calorie is a calorie" isn't exactly true.

    A fat molecule is more complex, and has stronger bonds than does a carb or simple sugar molecule. Thus, your body has to expend additional energy to break those fat molecule bonds than it would in sugars or carbs.

    Granted, if all you took in was a single type of molecule, it wouldnn't matter, but your body will break down sugars first, then carbs (simple then complex), and finally fat molecules to extract energy from them.

    Your body gets the most energy from burning fat molecules, but it also expends the most energy in burning them.

    It's not as simple as looking at isolated figures and food types.
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    Weight loss and gain is still done from calorie intake and calorie burn. The fats are going to need to be burned, but different fats do different things in and to your body. Does that make any sense????

    You can watch your calorie intake and watch your fat intake at the same time. Eating an avocado will not be something that will cause you to not burn calories.


    Avocado information below:


    Avocados, despite being high in fat are very good for you, and have many health promoting properities.
    They are an excellent food for weight loss as well. Fat In Avocado- Avocados have a huge amount of fat, 25-35 grams on average, and an avocado is close to 300 calories. Still, one 30 gram serving is equal to 1 Weight Watcher point, and is better for you nutritionally than many other popular one point snacks.

    A good source of vitamin K, dietary fiber, vitamin B6, vitamin C, folate, copper, and contain more potassium than a medium banana- 877 grams of potassium in one avocado vs 470 grams in a banana. And much less sugar!



    Avocados have a fat content of between 71 to 88% of their total calories - about 20 times the average for other fruits. A typical avocado contains 30 grams of fat, but 20 of these fat grams are health-promoting monounsaturated fats, especially oleic acid.
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    Air
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    Thanks all!

    So if I'm getting this right say I'm keeping a 30-50-20 ratio of fat - carbs - protein. With a 2000 calorie diet that's 600 - 1000 - 400 or 67g of fat - 250g carb - 100g protein (the 2000 calorie diet could be debated but that's in a few of the links in the OP - just trying to establish some numbers to work with). According to fitday (I know, not perfect) let's say I only had these two things to eat left in the house:

    1/8 of a 16" thick crust cheese pizza: 359 calories, 12 grams of fat
    1 Avocado: 279 calories, 27 grams of fat.

    Let's say I'm staying within those ratios and want to keep my fat down below that 67g from above and let's say I'm at 50g for the day right now. Technically that slice of pizza would actually be the thing to eat so I don't go above my target (though my heart wouldn't like me very much). If I was worried more about my cholesterol than weight loss than the avocado is the thing to eat. Correct?

    Again, the point of the numbers for me is to lock down how to track my foods and how much weight to put on certain figures.

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    I know many who justify fat things because they are healthy or natural fats. Things like avacado, nuts, etc..... However, I subscribe that if you are trying to lose weight you should "try" to stay away from ALL fats. If you MUST eat something with a high fat content, then the healthy/natural ones are a better choice, but in the long run fat is fat.

    Then there are things like trans fats which like Tom said are TERRIBLE (IMO, damn near POISON). You definitely want to stay away from saturated fats too.

    So in order of preference (to summarize):
    1. No fats
    2. Natural Fats
    3. Regular (non-saturated) fats

    I'm not even adding TRANS-FATS to the list....as I wouldn't even wan them in my preference list.
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    Air
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    So just protein and carbs?

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    Not really. A little fat is not bad for you.

    Eat what's best for you. That might not be the same as what's best for me.

    Once you figure out what works, run with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    Also if a calorie is a calorie then the fat that's taken in shouldn't have a bearing on weight losss/gain, right?
    So very WRONG!

    (I'm not trying to be rude, just get your attention and drive the point home)

    Weight loss is ALL about METABOLISM!

    Did you know that diet cola is not 100% "fat" free? Sure, it has no calories, but a tiny portion of your metabolism is required to break down the dyes in the soda. That tiny amount of metabolism is stolen away from the fat on your body that it could be breaking down. This is pretty much true for anything synthetic.

    And alcohol is the worst, requires some of your metabolism to break it down (obviously, but...) it slows your metabolism down too!

    I'm not saying to give up all synthetic stuff. And I sure won't give up my tasty wine or beer!

    So, a calorie isn't just a calorie and everything* you put into your body requires some of your metabolism to break it down.

    * of course, water doesn't and there's studies to suggest that grapefruits, coffee and other things actually improve/help your liver do a better job, thereby increasing your metabolism.

    by the way, you need good carbs, good proteins, -and- good fats to be healthy or your muscles, brain, and everything else will suffer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    I know many who justify fat things because they are healthy or natural fats. Things like avacado, nuts, etc..... However, I subscribe that if you are trying to lose weight you should "try" to stay away from ALL fats. If you MUST eat something with a high fat content, then the healthy/natural ones are a better choice, but in the long run fat is fat.

    Then there are things like trans fats which like Tom said are TERRIBLE (IMO, damn near POISON). You definitely want to stay away from saturated fats too.

    So in order of preference (to summarize):
    1. No fats
    2. Natural Fats
    3. Regular (non-saturated) fats

    I'm not even adding TRANS-FATS to the list....as I wouldn't even wan them in my preference list.
    I'm pretty sure that your brain will suffer big time if you cut out fats. I think low GOOD cholesterol will shut your body down. You also need good fats for a healthy digestive system. No fats will likely lead to a dangerous case of constipation.

    Please, do NOT give such idiotic advice unless you can back it up with facts. It's so very dangerous.

    Am I positive about what I said, no, but from what little I know, your advice is horrible.

    EVERYONE, before making a drastic change like cutting out completely carbs, protein or fats, talk to your doctor or nutritionist. I'm almost positive that removing one of them for an extended period will fock you up.

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    My inlaws had all this nutrition stuff figured out about 5 years ago. Only now, they have different ideas.

    Meanwhile, my wife's cousin says the doctor told him, "If it tastes good, just spit it out!". That's probably as good a strategy as any.

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    Looking at fats as good and bad is very simplistic. Fats are very beneficial, especially saturated fats. There are certain times to eat certain foods that will really help you. Look at the different hormones that are at work and try to use them to your advantage. If you have just participated in strenuous exercise you need to raise your insulin level so your body can repair any damage that has just occurred and preserve muscle mass so it is not used to replenish glycogen. In this case you would avoid fat because it would slow the absorption of glucose, thus slowing down the repair process. You may want to eat something that will shoot your blood sugar through the roof like a baked potato. To enhance the efficacy of this process take in some lean protein, or fast digesting protein, like whey.

    When you are realtivly inactive you may want to have fewer carbs. Try eating some fats, protein and some slow digesting carbs, or something low carb like vegetables or fruits, which have lots of nutrients. The fats that you ate will keep you full longer because it slows gastric emtying. Fat is also needed to absorb vitamins A, D, E and K.

    Try to get your fat from natural sources, and don't eat too much of it at one time, but that goes with anything if you don't want to gain weight.

    A calorie is just a calorie, but the other conditions in your body that you induce at the time. If your body is looking to rebuild itself it will use the calories to add muscle and glycogen. If you are sitting around eating fries and chips with gravy then it will be used to add fat on to you.

    Start with manipulating your insulin. If you eat a large amount of potatoes then a whole load of fat you will be encouraging your body to build fat stores. You raised your insulin level, then dumped a bunch of fat in to the mix so your body will readily store it.

    Don't eat too many calories in a day, but make sure to eat the right foods at the right time. Keep to real foods not strange chemicals that try and pass for food. Don't be scared of eating fat, just don't eat too much of it at the wrong time.

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    Triathlon in my future??? flip18436572's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioFlyer View Post
    I'm almost positive that removing one of them for an extended period will fock you up.

    If you don't have the facts, you should not be posting something like that.

    There was another part of your post that was shocking also. What do you consider a low GOOD cholesterol reading. What the United States uses, or what the rest of the world uses? I am just asking a simple question, so please do not take this the wrong way. I am not trying to start a war, I am just asking a question.
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    Senior Member breadbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTermite View Post
    I know many who justify fat things because they are healthy or natural fats. Things like avacado, nuts, etc..... However, I subscribe that if you are trying to lose weight you should "try" to stay away from ALL fats. If you MUST eat something with a high fat content, then the healthy/natural ones are a better choice, but in the long run fat is fat.

    Then there are things like trans fats which like Tom said are TERRIBLE (IMO, damn near POISON). You definitely want to stay away from saturated fats too.

    So in order of preference (to summarize):
    1. No fats
    2. Natural Fats
    3. Regular (non-saturated) fats

    I'm not even adding TRANS-FATS to the list....as I wouldn't even wan them in my preference list.
    This is just my opinion and its amazing how two people could differ so much. Don't stay away from fats. Fats are essential oils. Your body needs them to work. Fats don't have too much impact on weight loss at all!! They can even help lose weight. Sure there are bad fats and these have to be minimised but use your common sense. This fella can explain it better than me!

    http://www.udoerasmus.com/firstscreen.htm
    Last edited by breadbin; 12-12-07 at 01:33 AM. Reason: better link
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    It's the type, definitely! For example, Butter is better than Margarine (except for the Olive Oil type, or transfat free margarines, you know the heart smart stuff), because it's a natural fat that most people can assimilate easily.The exception, of course, is if you're lactose intolerant......

    Omega 3 fats = good
    Natural fats in food, in correct balance = good.

    Transfats = TERRIBLE! Margarine was invented to make Turkeys fatter for slaughter, believe it or not, and it caused a higher % of early mortality in Turkeys from Coronary Artery Disease. (I'm not kidding here! ) Traditional margarine is nearly a plastic compound.
    There are degrees of lactose intolerance. The amount of butter used in cooking or consumed on morning toast and dinner rolls probably wouldn't cause problems for most of us who are lactose intolerant. I can consume butter, yogurt, cheese, and ice cream in moderate quantities without marked ill effects. The little bit of milk I had before my Cherry Hill to home ride about three weeks ago, on the other hand, caused me to make three unexpected stops at businesses along the Schuylkill River Trail, and eventually SAG 12 miles from my house.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    Thanks all!

    So if I'm getting this right say I'm keeping a 30-50-20 ratio of fat - carbs - protein. With a 2000 calorie diet that's 600 - 1000 - 400 or 67g of fat - 250g carb - 100g protein (the 2000 calorie diet could be debated but that's in a few of the links in the OP - just trying to establish some numbers to work with). According to fitday (I know, not perfect) let's say I only had these two things to eat left in the house:

    1/8 of a 16" thick crust cheese pizza: 359 calories, 12 grams of fat
    1 Avocado: 279 calories, 27 grams of fat.

    Let's say I'm staying within those ratios and want to keep my fat down below that 67g from above and let's say I'm at 50g for the day right now. Technically that slice of pizza would actually be the thing to eat so I don't go above my target (though my heart wouldn't like me very much). If I was worried more about my cholesterol than weight loss than the avocado is the thing to eat. Correct?

    Again, the point of the numbers for me is to lock down how to track my foods and how much weight to put on certain figures.
    I think you are overthinking this, Air. I found that as I calorie counted the fats took care of themselves. 2000 calories of lard and 2000 calories of oatmeal are the same number of calories, but the oatmeal is going to be a lot more filling, and you will be better nourished. And while my dietary changes weren't as drastic as replacing lard with oatmeal, replacing some meats with healthier meats and vegetables, and limiting eggs and dairy products did the trick.

    Unfortunately, people get hung up on the numbers and claim weight loss is difficult. It's only as difficult as you make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by breadbin View Post
    This is just my opinion and its amazing how two people could differ so much. Don't stay away from fats. Fats are essential oils. Your body needs them to work. Fats don't have too much impact on weight loss at all!! They can even help lose weight. Sure there are bad fats and these have to be minimised but use your common sense. This fella can explain it better than me!

    http://www.udoerasmus.com/firstscreen.htm
    Whoa - excellent link. By the way, this page is a great leaping off point even though it's one big teaser for his book and oil blend.

    [edit] In short caloric intake is less important than types of fats. He recommends a 2:1 ratio of n-3 (found in flax seeds) to n-6 (found in sesame, sunflower oil, fatty fish (herring, sardines, salmon, mackerel, trout, tuna)).

    He also makes an interesting point about saturated fats being natural from animals and that too much carbs will be converted to saturated fat in the body.[/edit]
    Last edited by Air; 12-12-07 at 07:51 AM.

  24. #24
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    Oh, and the solution to yesterday's question was to go to bed early and hungry.

  25. #25
    Air
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    I think you are overthinking this, Air. I found that as I calorie counted the fats took care of themselves. 2000 calories of lard and 2000 calories of oatmeal are the same number of calories, but the oatmeal is going to be a lot more filling, and you will be better nourished. And while my dietary changes weren't as drastic as replacing lard with oatmeal, replacing some meats with healthier meats and vegetables, and limiting eggs and dairy products did the trick.

    Unfortunately, people get hung up on the numbers and claim weight loss is difficult. It's only as difficult as you make it.
    Actually I think I could suck down 2000 calories of oatmeal without thinking of it but could only get through a few spoonfuls of lard before I was stuffed. The fat is much harder to digest. I find it with salads too - a tablespoon of olive oil will make the salad a bit more filling than just eating vegetables alone (which in large quantities usually make me feel ill and lethargic anyway). I don't use 1% turkey anymore because I found I had to eat more of it in order to feel full.

    I went through a period last year about now where I watched everything I ate to the drop but my exercise tailed off - was down to about 2200 calories a day which for my 6-1" 260# frame (at the time with swing dancing a few times a week) should have been fine to at least maintain weight but I packed on 2 pounds per week. I have beef maybe twice a month, only eat turkey (allergic to chicken), don't drink milk or eat eggs, only keep extra virgin olive oil in the kitchen, avoid processed sugar and bleached flour sticking to whole wheat flour/pasta and brown rice, and most of my veggies are raw or just slightly cooked. In short almost every healthy thing I can think of to replace and swap with. Ever since I never really paid attention to calories and just tried to eat healthier but now I'm touching 290 (and all the wheel issues this summer didn't help with the exercising). So my questions are specific because losing weight with diet has never been successful but I want to track and understand where I'd need to make a change. That and I almost can't leave the house because nothing fits.

    Going back to that example I know most would choose the avocado and I didn't come up with the example as a trap. If trying to maintain a balanced food intake means the avocado will mean too much fat for that day than isn't it better to eat something else if the type of fat is inconsequential to weight loss (i.e., a gram of fat is a gram of fat)?

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