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Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) Looking to lose that spare tire? Ideal weight 200+? Frustrated being a large cyclist in a sport geared for the ultra-light? Learn about the bikes and parts that can take the abuse of a heavier cyclist, how to keep your body going while losing the weight, and get support from others who've been successful.

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Old 03-18-08, 01:07 PM   #51
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The eat like a cave man theory. I am trying to work up to that level. For me ,carbs are the enemy, so I am trying to cut as many of them out of my diet as possible.
Eat like a caveman theory? Now that's the first time I'm ever hearing that. All this synthetic supplement stuff is 19th and 20th century. So I'd say it's rather a way of eating which has worked just fine for the last... what.. maybe 20000 years or however long we are on this planet after we've evolved from primates or whatever other cell form we came from.
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Old 03-18-08, 01:32 PM   #52
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In my case, it's because of an uptake issue as a result of my altered intestinal tract. I have to take triple the dose to get normal levels and B12, for example only gets destroyed in the stomach and you only get <2% of it into your system vs 98% of the intake via sublingual route separately.

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Why the separate B vitamins, Tom? Why not an 'all-in-one' pill?
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Old 03-18-08, 04:21 PM   #53
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OH MY GAWD this gets even better. A guy advertising his services and product is for real? After all the research I would think one would realize tha it is not possible to pack on that much muscle while carrying a low fat body content that this guy has. Just not possible without steroids or hormones. Sure, most bodybuilders claim innocente till after they are done competing then come clean about steroids. Like this guy is going to admit to it while promoting his services.

Wow, trained female track stars! Like they haven't been busted for 'roids along with the men trackstars of the past!:rollseyes:

You're correct Thaetviking, I have found a way that works for me. I'm sure it will work for you too! It is called eating right and hard work. Something most people can do but won't. They would rather sit home and buy some supplement online cause some roid freak suggests them while trying to make a buck.

I'm pretty sure while I was at the gym lastnight, lifting weights, doing crunches, leg raises, jumping rope, you were on this dudes site looking for an eay way to get fit.

I laugh everytime I see the latest greatest ab machine avdertised on tv. People with ripped abs promoting equipment developed a week ago. Yeah, like it took a week and this machine to get ripped washboard abs. I'm pretty sure these people have been fit way before the product was introduced! Laugh even more when a fool buys it believing!

Yeah, sorry about the 'blind' comment! You're correct.

Again, eat sensibly and ride hard. It will work if you've got the guts!


BTW, look up a "natural" body building magazine. Then think twice about taking advice from this fake on the strength building site! 15 years ago my passion for lifting weights was much stronger tha it was for cycling. I read every magazine possible. Stars all denied abuse. I believed it till one day a guy I admired fell over after a posing competition. He died of dehydration drugs mixed with the steroids. That was when I looked into the natrual builders only to find they were much smaller than the abusers and deniers. Now looking at that guy, he's an abuser. If he denies steroid abuse, he's a fake. To stand up there and pose for his site claiming to be a natural strongman, he's a cheat and a fake. SOme people will say and do anything for a buck.

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Old 03-18-08, 05:54 PM   #54
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OH MY GAWD this gets even better. A guy advertising his services and product is for real? After all the research I would think one would realize tha it is not possible to pack on that much muscle while carrying a low fat body content that this guy has. Just not possible without steroids or hormones. Sure, most bodybuilders claim innocente till after they are done competing then come clean about steroids. Like this guy is going to admit to it while promoting his services.

Wow, trained female track stars! Like they haven't been busted for 'roids along with the men trackstars of the past!:rollseyes:

You're correct Thaetviking, I have found a way that works for me. I'm sure it will work for you too! It is called eating right and hard work. Something most people can do but won't. They would rather sit home and buy some supplement online cause some roid freak suggests them while trying to make a buck.

I'm pretty sure while I was at the gym lastnight, lifting weights, doing crunches, leg raises, jumping rope, you were on this dudes site looking for an eay way to get fit.

I laugh everytime I see the latest greatest ab machine avdertised on tv. People with ripped abs promoting equipment developed a week ago. Yeah, like it took a week and this machine to get ripped washboard abs. I'm pretty sure these people have been fit way before the product was introduced! Laugh even more when a fool buys it believing!

Yeah, sorry about the 'blind' comment! You're correct.

Again, eat sensibly and ride hard. It will work if you've got the guts!


BTW, look up a "natural" body building magazine. Then think twice about taking advice from this fake on the strength building site! 15 years ago my passion for lifting weights was much stronger tha it was for cycling. I read every magazine possible. Stars all denied abuse. I believed it till one day a guy I admired fell over after a posing competition. He died of dehydration drugs mixed with the steroids. That was when I looked into the natrual builders only to find they were much smaller than the abusers and deniers. Now looking at that guy, he's an abuser. If he denies steroid abuse, he's a fake. To stand up there and pose for his site claiming to be a natural strongman, he's a cheat and a fake. SOme people will say and do anything for a buck.
You seem to have a lot of hate going on inside of you. Maybe you should spend some time figuring out why that is instead of throwing it around here. It will help lower your Cortisol levels.

I am through reading your rants.
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Old 03-18-08, 06:07 PM   #55
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You seem to have a lot of hate going on inside of you. Maybe you should spend some time figuring out why that is instead of throwing it around here. It will help lower your Cortisol levels.

I am through reading your rants.
Cool, you'll still be a gullible out of shape guy and I'll continue to be a strong clyde rider without all the gimmicks!

Besides, you're the one that flapped our gums in hate when I spoke the truth. Don't worry, I understand some like to talk rather than do the work.
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Old 03-18-08, 06:27 PM   #56
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My glucosamine story, for what it's worth.

About 5 years ago I tore the meniscus in my left knee in a hiking accident. I saw a knee surgeon the next day, had the surgery the day after, then spent a few weeks doing physical therapy.

After the surgery, my brother's girlfriend[1] suggested I take glucosamine to help with recovery. Having a renewed appreciation for healthy knees, I started popping the pills daily.

After a couple of months, my knee was back to full range of motion. I've not had any problems with it since. This may or may not be due to the glucosamine; we'll never know. However...

I've had problems with my right elbow since I was a little kid. I think I injured it playing football in my front yard. It doesn't extend completely, it's often stiff and creaky, and usually sore in the mornings.

One day, after taking glucosamine for a few months, I noticed that my elbow problems have mostly disappeared. I still can't extend it completely, of course (that's almost certainly a mechanical issue) but the stiffness, creakiness, soreness, and occasional popping are completely gone.

I'm definitely a "glucosamine believer". Of course, your mileage may vary.


[1] She's not just "my brother's girlfriend", she's also a surgical recovery nurse with about 25 years experience, and a vocal advocate for natural and homeopathic treatments. Regarding health matters, I take her advice seriously.
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Old 03-18-08, 08:31 PM   #57
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Eat like a caveman theory? Now that's the first time I'm ever hearing that. All this synthetic supplement stuff is 19th and 20th century. So I'd say it's rather a way of eating which has worked just fine for the last... what.. maybe 20000 years or however long we are on this planet after we've evolved from primates or whatever other cell form we came from.
The first time I heard it put that way was 5-7years ago. The idea being making sure your food has been processed as little as possible, e.g. fast food. So you say to yourself WWHED (what would **** erectus do?) Obviously in the world we live in there is going to be a certain amount of processing that we are just going to have to live with but there is some or much that we can cut out.

Supplements can be man made or they can be processed from natural means. The CLA I take either comes from sunflower seeds or I think it is safflower (I can not find my reference for the second so it may be wrong.) CLA is found in meat or dairy products but since the bulk of our meat and dairy cows here in the Midwest are fed grains and silage they do not produce as much as grass fed. Grass fed can produce 300-500% more.

Sounds to me like you have a healthy approach to what you are doing. Keep it up.
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Old 03-18-08, 08:55 PM   #58
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I'm taking glucosamine too for various and sundry athletic injuries. Recent studies indicate that the cheaper glucosamine works much better than the expensive kind, that is Glucosamine Sulfate is the kind to buy.
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Old 03-18-08, 09:08 PM   #59
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Hello Werewolf,

any links for this?

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.....Recent studies indicate that the cheaper glucosamine works much better than the expensive kind, that is Glucosamine Sulfate is the kind to buy.
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Old 03-18-08, 09:27 PM   #60
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You seem to have a lot of hate going on inside of you. Maybe you should spend some time figuring out why that is instead of throwing it around here.
Or he could take it to the Road forum.
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Old 03-18-08, 09:32 PM   #61
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Wow!!! Seems as though my "creaky knees" comment (yes, that was my post that Mr Beanz was referring to)has really set some folks off. I'm almost sorry that I posted it. Yes, I do have some joint inflammation from time to time...geez, doesn't everyone get a few aches and pains every now and then??? My creaky knee developed due to a fall during a 5k running race 15 years ago. I hit the pavement hard with my left knee and it hasn't been the same since. However, I haven't let it stop me from running, cycling, or any other activity. My back problem is a slipped vertebra that I've had since childhood...not much I can do about that, other than a fusion surgery which I absolutely refuse to put myself through since there is no guarantee that it will work. I see nothing wrong with taking joint supplements, if it enables me to get out there and particpate in activities that I enjoy doing so much. Why is that such a bad thing? Should I just stay home, sit on the couch and stuff my face because my knees are little creaky??? That's ludicrous to me. Sure...if my pain was to the point where I was unable to walk or had limited mobility...then, that's a different story. But seeing as though I'm training for my first triathlon this summer, I consider myself to be far from immobile. For what it's worth...I'm a 42-year old female that has been working out on a regular basis (read: daily) since I was 18....with weight fluctuations from 215 (my highest) to 146 (my lowest and current weight). Aside from my creaky knee and slipped vertebra, the only other health problem I have ever had (and still have) is asthma...which is completely under control thanks to preventive meds. So...I'll keep on taking my glucosamine supplements (and multivitamin and protein shakes) because I feel they are beneficial to me...and for those that think they don't do squat...oh well.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000................

You are getting out there and doing it regardless of whatever you have to overcome. That's impressive.
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Old 03-18-08, 09:49 PM   #62
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+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000................

My point exactly. He's taking supplements as a result of his injury or as rehab. Not because he is trying to mask pain or simply cause he read it on a advertisement.
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Old 03-18-08, 10:40 PM   #63
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Like I said, you could take it to the Road forum, where your 'style' fits in with the general tone of the conversation. But if you can't stand the heat, you get out of the peleton, eh?

Wow, I thought my style was 'you can do it'! I'm more of the 'you're a big boy now, quit crying about the wind and hills, it can be done'. But that's just not what this forum wants to hear eventhough it's true. More of an 'I got an excuse' forum.

Just as I preach Velocity Deep V's. Great wheels but these guys want to hear that they can ride botique race wheels toally avoiding the truth. The few that listen and are doers are the pay off. The whiners are just obstacles to reach the few that 'believe they can'.

I've got a friend that went down form 480 to 230. My hat is off to those that can do such a thing. But wouldn't have happened if he sat home crying in his gatorade.

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Old 03-18-08, 10:53 PM   #64
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Just remember though, Mr Beanz, that some of us do work very hard to get where we're at and do have to compensate for structural damage, or inherent structural issues due to organic joint disease and other issues.

I use a prophylactic dose of Ibuprofen to mask chronic knee inflammation as well as Glucosamine to prevent further deterioration on long rides , for example. I have to supplement with high doses of vitamins and supplement protein, for very specific medical reasons and am doing so under the direction of a licensed Dietitian as well as my physician. What I've seen though were primarily broad, sweeping generalizations.

Remember back when I first started posting on BF? There were a significant number of people that flamed me for the bariatric surgery and told me I'd never ride distance over in the Road Forum. I have proved them wrong so far It's been the result of hard work, though, on my part to have even gotten as far as I have. I also supplement my testosterone and have a therapeutic waiver for it for racing because I no longer produce a sufficient amount naturally to sustain normal levels due to a Pituitary issue.

As to the Deep V's, I gotta agree with you there wholeheartedly as to how strong they are....love 'em!

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Wow, I thought my style was 'you can do it'! I'm more of the 'you're a big boy now, quit crying about the wind and hills, it can be done'. But that's just not what this forum wants to hear eventhough it's true. More of an 'I got an excuse' forum.

Just as I preach Velocity Deep V's. Great wheels but these guys want to hear that they can ride botique race wheels toally avoiding the truth. The few that listen and are doers are the pay off. The whiners are just obstacles to reach the few that 'believe they can'.
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Old 03-18-08, 10:55 PM   #65
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Hello Werewolf,

any links for this?

It's quite long, but here it is - The S D Benjamin MD Newsletter, June 2007


_________


An Update from Sam Benjamin
1.THE GLUCOSAMINE MESS

If you have arthritis or know someone with arthritis (just about everyone who reads this), you might want to take the time to read this. Before we start, my take is that if you have osteoarthritis, it is certainly worth a trial (at least 2-3 mos.) of glucosamine sulfate (the sulfate part is important). If you feel better, then that is perfectly acceptable because it is safe. If the improvement is a placebo effect, what do you care? Would you rather be dependent on anti inflammatories that increase the risk of heart disease? By the way, there are MANY relatively safe options (herbs, procyanidins, acupuncture, mind/body interventions, diet, exercise, etc.) to try for osteoarthritis and a good integrative physician should be helpful in guiding you.

As you read this remember:
a. Academicians are a mixed bag. They CAN be more independent in their research and indeed have been in SOME studies. BUT, much, if not most, of the research $ in medical schools comes from pharmaceutical companies. There have been innumerable incidents in which academic research and the researchers have been tainted. "Independent Help & Research Organizations" Association (ARA), receive much of their $ as well from pharma companies and their ethics can NOT be considered models. They can have a bias in that IF over the counter natural products were to be effective,it could adversely impact the social, economic and political structure of these organizations populated by physicians who write prescriptions that add to big pharma wallets.

b.First if all, there are MANY different qualities of glucosamine so the studies looked at in the review below most likely have NEVER compared aplles to apples. (I know, do not forget, I am inimately involved in the natural food industry.) The amount of money that you pay for glucosamine sulfate does NOT in any way assure the quality of the product so your health care provider (if you should try glucosamine)- a BIG problem! Next, the natural product industry is NO different than big pharma in that they must SELL PRODUCT!!!!! The difference is that the pharmaceutical industry with all of its flaws is far better regulated than the natural food industry. (There ARE laws to regulate naturalproducts, BUT, with limited $ the FDA does not do a very good job of this.)The result is that much (if not most) of the natural product industry has a poor history of integrity- although there is now a
glimmer of change. Thertefore, studies that they pay for independently must be taken as well with a grain of salt because the results and the testing methodolgy mat very well be tainted.

OK enough ithh all of this. I know that this is pretty heavy stuff but you- the consumer- need to know the reality of what you put in your mouth and whether the information about it is legit, It's a hard pill to swallow, I know!

HERE GOES

Although millions of arthritis sufferers buy glucosamine supplements to ease their joint pain, there's still no convincing proof that glucosamine works, according to a major new analysis.

In fact, the results of 15 trials of over-the-counter glucosamine vary so widely that industry bias may be a factor influencing the more positive outcomes, concludes a team writing in the July issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism.

"There's a big difference between trials, much more than you would expect by chance," explained lead investigator Dr. Steven Vlad, a fellow in rheumatology at Boston University Medical Center. (Incidentally, Steven is a VERY cool guy.)

But an editorialist in the journal refutes those claims.

Dr. Jean-Yves Reginster, of the World Health Organization's Collaborating Center for Public Health Aspects of Rheumatic Disease, in Liege, Belgium, counters that industry trials are typically more stringent than independent academic research. He also believes that Vlad's group included trials in their analysis that were very un like in terms of timeframes and methodology, confusing the results.

So, the years-long scientific debate on glucosamine continues. The popular supplement did take a major hit earlier this year, when a major U.S. study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found glucosamine hydrochloride to be of little help for knee osteoarthritis.

But Vlad also knew that other studies had found a real benefit to regular glucosamine use. Why the differences between trials?

To find out, he and his team combed through the available literature and selected 15 double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trials that looked at the use of glucosamine for more than four weeks to help fight hip or knee osteoarthritis pain.

Trials involved either of the two major glucosamine preparations: glucosamine hydrochloride or glucosamine sulfate. Each delivers glucosamine bound to a different chemical salt.

First of all, the team determined one of the preparations to be useless.

"I think we have shown pretty conclusively that glucosamine hydrochloride doesn't work," Vlad said. "The data there is all consistent, it goes together -- there's just no evidence that it works."

But that wasn't the story with the other preparation, glucosamine sulfate.

In that case, results varied widely between the randomized trials. However, that variance went far beyond random chance. In fact, according to Vlad, the spread in results among various trials was four times that which would be normally expected.

No particular feature of the studies' design helped explain this disparity, except for differences among trials in what's known as "allocation concealment" -- the fact that some trials were more lax than others at concealing from the researchers involved which patients would get the drug and which would get a placebo.

One factor did appear to play a role in the variance between the glucosamine sulfate trial results: industry involvement.

"It's really hard to know just how big a factor that is," Vlad said, "whether it's manufacturing the whole effect or just exaggerating an effect that's there." He also stressed that, "If there is a bias from industry, I doubt very much that it is intentional. People want to sell their product, but I think that they rarely go into a study with the intention of twisting the results."

But Reginster, in his editorial, believes Vlad's own analysis is flawed. He agreed with the Boston group that industry involvement can, and often does, influence trial results. But he also notes that many of the industry studies included in the Boston analysis had to pass muster with the European League Against Rheumatism, the expert body which vouched for many of the trials' high quality.

That's important, he said, because -- unlike in the United States -- glucosamine sulfate is approved for sale as a prescription drug by regulatory agencies in Europe. To gain approval, industry-funded trials must conform to regulatory oversight and are often better designed than independent studies, he noted.

But Vlad doesn't buy that argument. "I would agree with [Reginster] that, in general, drug manufacturers do produce better trials," he said. "But I also believe it is too simplistic to say that academic researchers aren't as good at weeding out confounding factors and things that would influence the results. They can produce trials that are every bit as good."

Another expert weighed in on the issue.

"I have worked on both sides [industry and independent]," said Malachy McHugh, director of research at the Nicholas Institute of Sports Medicine and Athletic Trauma, at Lenox Hill Hospital, in New York City. He said one issue at play is the dire lack of quality independent studies.

"In the nutritional supplement area, the bigger problem is that there is a disincentive for companies to have their products tested," he said. "If they can convince people that their product works, why run the risk of proving otherwise? There are also many negative studies that never see the light of day."

Reginster lobbed another major criticism at the Vlad study. In his opinion, the Boston group mixed together trials with widely varying timeframes (four-week studies and three-year trials), glucosamine delivered in both injections and pills, and studies of greatly differing quality. This type of heterogeneity was bound to lead to variety in results, he wrote.

Vlad agreed that his team's analysis did cast a wide net, but he said that's the way meta-analyses are typically performed. "You try and capture all the trials that may be relevant to your question," he said. Select too few trials, he said, and you lose statistical power.

The system is "never going to be perfect," Vlad said.

He stressed that the new analysis does not close the book on glucosamine. And given the supplement's good safety profile, patients who really believe they are reaping a benefit from the glucosamine sulfate should feel free to continue to take it.

Vlad and McHugh remain dubious, however, that the pricey supplement does ease osteoarthritis pain.

"From my perspective," McHugh said, "the New England Journal of Medicine paper provides the most objective take on the efficacy. The bottom line is that there is limited efficacy."

In a related study in the same issue of the journal, U.S. researchers surveyed more than 6,000 people with rheumatoid arthritis and found that most are reluctant to switch to a new medication as long as their condition does not worsen.

The team from the National Data Bank for Rheumatic Diseases in Wichita, Kan., found three-quarters of respondents were happy with their current medications, and almost two-thirds (64 percent) said they wouldn't try a new drug unless their symptoms deteriorated. The findings may explain why many patients hold off trying promising new medications, the researchers said.

Of course, those that hold off taking new meds may have a well thought out plan. As many as 100,000 may have died as a result of taking VIOXX it is alleged.It may be a REALLY good thing to have a wait and see approach. This is NOT what BIG PHARMA wants.As for me, a doc who sometimes has trouble sleeping - wondering if I did the right thing each day and whether my advice could adversely effect the well being of an individual or family, I say, DO NO HARM!!!! Glucosamine MIGHT be the ticket for you or a loved one and it is pretty darn safe. WORTH A TRY.
You can always contact me at SDBenjaminMD.com or call 602 840 3385 for an appointment.
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Old 03-18-08, 11:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
Just remember though, Mr Beanz, that some of us do work very hard to get where we're at and do have to compensate for structural damage, or inherent structural issues due to organic joint disease and other issues.

I use a prophylactic dose of Ibuprofen to mask chronic knee inflammation as well as Glucosamine to prevent further deterioration on long rides , for example. I have to supplement with high doses of vitamins and supplement protein, for very specific medical reasons and am doing so under the direction of a licensed Dietitian as well as my physician. What I've seen though were primarily broad, sweeping generalizations.

Remember back when I first started posting on BF? There were a significant number of people that flamed me for the bariatric surgery and told me I'd never ride distance over in the Road Forum. I have proved them wrong so far It's been the result of hard work, though, on my part to have even gotten as far as I have. I also supplement my testosterone and have a therapeutic waiver for it for racing because I no longer produce a sufficient amount naturally to sustain normal levels due to a Pituitary issue.

As to the Deep V's, I gotta agree with you there wholeheartedly as to how strong they are....love 'em!
Like I said Tom, there are circumstances that are acceptable. But just as in bodybuilding, supplements are everywhere and mostly hype. Placebo if you will. My hat is off to your efforts as in do what you need to do to make it. But in many cases, it's a person looking for a shortcut when it comes to supplements. Not always though. Eventhough you do what you must, there is still a large amount of hard work involved. I don't believe I attacked the OP's case, but he responded as if I targeted him alone.

My point is there are many silly bogus supplements. I know rides pefectly helathy taking supplements to increase lung capacity yada yada yada rather than training for a ride. I can even appreciate where The Historian comes from being handicapped and all, but yet he continues to be obsessed with me. I guess I'm too much of a roadie eventhough I only have two Performance cheapo jerseys, not even a decent one!
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Old 03-19-08, 05:24 AM   #67
Tom Stormcrowe
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You just have strong opinions, as does The Historian (As do I for that matter )

Just don't start from a presumption that someone is shortcutting is all I'm saying. Granted, there are a lot of supplements out there that are positively scary in the potential damage to the body if overused and a lot that are nothing more than marketing ploys and are totally ineffective in any meaningful manner. Then there are the 'roid juicers as well. To the best of my knowledge no one on this subforum has advocated any dangerous practices, though and if they were to, you can bet I'll be having a conversation with them in private and it won't be pretty

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Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
Like I said Tom, there are circumstances that are acceptable. But just as in bodybuilding, supplements are everywhere and mostly hype. Placebo if you will. My hat is off to your efforts as in do what you need to do to make it. But in many cases, it's a person looking for a shortcut when it comes to supplements. Not always though. Eventhough you do what you must, there is still a large amount of hard work involved. I don't believe I attacked the OP's case, but he responded as if I targeted him alone.

My point is there are many silly bogus supplements. I know rides pefectly helathy taking supplements to increase lung capacity yada yada yada rather than training for a ride. I can even appreciate where The Historian comes from being handicapped and all, but yet he continues to be obsessed with me. I guess I'm too much of a roadie eventhough I only have two Performance cheapo jerseys, not even a decent one!
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Old 03-19-08, 07:11 AM   #68
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Yeah my spelling is weigh off today. I do not know what is going on there.
All that Old English reading was playing havoc with you.
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Old 03-19-08, 07:17 AM   #69
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It's quite long, but here it is - The S D Benjamin MD Newsletter, June 2007

(Snipped report- NB)
Interesting. So the scientific jury is still out. While I'm waiting for the next report praising or condemning glucosamine, I'll keep taking it and enjoying the benefits.
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Old 03-19-08, 07:29 AM   #70
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The first time I heard it put that way was 5-7years ago. The idea being making sure your food has been processed as little as possible, e.g. fast food. So you say to yourself WWHED (what would **** erectus do?) ...
What I want to know is what Australopithecus Afarensis would do .
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Old 03-19-08, 07:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
You just have strong opinions, as does The Historian (As do I for that matter )

Just don't start from a presumption that someone is shortcutting is all I'm saying. Granted, there are a lot of supplements out there that are positively scary in the potential damage to the body if overused and a lot that are nothing more than marketing ploys and are totally ineffective in any meaningful manner. Then there are the 'roid juicers as well. To the best of my knowledge no one on this subforum has advocated any dangerous practices, though and if they were to, you can bet I'll be having a conversation with them in private and it won't be pretty
I may be a person of strong opinions, Tom, but they haven't been shown in this thread.

For most of the posters to this thread, taking supplements is a way of repairing damage, not gaining something that was never there in the first place. Compare the riders on Bike Forums to buckets. All the buckets are different sizes. They will hold different volumes of water. Some of the buckets have holes in them. Some of the holes are tiny, and are slow leaks, and some allow water to gush out of them. Surely there's nothing "shortcutting" about patching holes and slowing or stopping the flow of water out of the bucket? How else will you know your capacity if you can't fill up? And I think any person who claims to be a sportsman can recognize that fact. After all, isn't one of the reasons people compete is to determine how big a bucket they are, and how much they can hold?
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Old 03-19-08, 07:49 AM   #72
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All that Old English reading was playing havoc with you.
It is either that or all the UNIX work I have been doing. Spelling "list" ls or "change directory" cd.
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Old 03-19-08, 08:02 AM   #73
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Old 03-19-08, 08:04 AM   #74
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I don't see how one could go thru life without a sense of humor...


..and beer of course.

Is beer a supplement?
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Old 03-19-08, 08:08 AM   #75
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I don't see how one could go thru life without a sense of humor...


..and beer of course.

Is beer a supplement?
I don't know. I don't drink beer, or other alcoholic beverages, other than a few sips when well-meaning friends have tried to get me to start drinking.
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