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  1. #26
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    I see, OK thanks!
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  2. #27
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    It's myth debunking time again!

    Unusual spoke patterns do not offer unusual advantages. 3-cross and 4-cross serve just about every purpose well. There are few reasons to deviate from them. Furthermore, there is no functional difference between 3-cross and 4-cross. Back when we built wheels by hand, mechanics would choose the pattern based on the availability of the spoke sizes. Wheels with few spokes can't use a 4-cross pattern, but they can use 1-cross or 2-cross.

    Functionally speaking, there is no such thing as a stiff wheel or a springy wheel. The way a wheel is built doesn't affect the way it feels. It does, however, affect the durability.

    Spoke crossing doesn't serve the purpose of increasing lateral strength. It serves to reduce fatigue.

    rumrunn6, you are due for at least a rebuild, with all new spokes. You can use the same rim if it's not damaged.

    How many spokes does the wheel have? You may be better served with a stronger wheel. And how long did this wheel last before spokes started breaking?
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
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  3. #28
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    Without running downstairs to check the front - it has the fewest spokes I've seen on any wheels
    I bought the bike in 2007 and it has maybe 700 miles on it
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  4. #29
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    OK, tell us the result after running downstairs.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
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  5. #30
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    It's myth debunking time again!

    Unusual spoke patterns do not offer unusual advantages. 3-cross and 4-cross serve just about every purpose well. There are few reasons to deviate from them. Furthermore, there is no functional difference between 3-cross and 4-cross. Back when we built wheels by hand, mechanics would choose the pattern based on the availability of the spoke sizes. Wheels with few spokes can't use a 4-cross pattern, but they can use 1-cross or 2-cross.

    Functionally speaking, there is no such thing as a stiff wheel or a springy wheel. The way a wheel is built doesn't affect the way it feels. It does, however, affect the durability.

    Spoke crossing doesn't serve the purpose of increasing lateral strength. It serves to reduce fatigue.
    I really do build a lot of boring wheels and I ended up building up another boring 36 / 3 cross front wheel for my fixed folder this afternoon and it was a case of using the materials (spokes) on hand as I don't have a wide range of shorter spokes kicking around and did not feeling like making up a set.

    As it is... this wheel will probably bore me to death for the next 10,000 miles and with it's high flange hub and wing nuts it is rather pretty to boot.

    I like unusual patterns as long as they are also structurally sound as fashion always follows function in my little world.

  6. #31
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    noglider - it's a 24/2

    pretty weak, huh?
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  7. #32
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    2-cross is fine for a 24-spoke wheel. But a 24-spoke wheel is not fine, in my opinion, especially for someone of your size.

    Unfortunately, it will be expen$ive to do this right. It might be worth it to rebuild with all new spokes. It will be less expensive, and if you do it yourself, you would do a good job, and it might hold up. Are you game?
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
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  8. #33
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    um .... no.

    I need a good bike and I have some money right now. This might be the time to buy it.

    However, buying a proper wheel might be more prudent.

    My LBS hasn't called so I don't know what they're up to down there. Maybe just too busy to do anything with it. Should I just go get it and not even pay to have that spoke replaced and wheel trued? I mean, even if they fix it, I'm not gonna use it anymore.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  9. #34
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    OK then. Buy a wheel, since the time is right. If you've broken two spokes, it means they are all fatigued, and you will break more.

    Get at least 32 spokes as a bare minimum. 36 spokes would be better.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
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  10. #35
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    OK, thanks for the recommendations. I already hit two LBS for shopping. Both shops had wheels in stock but were not aero profile like the front. For that I would have to spend much more. I wrote to the manufacturer in China but I doubt I will hear back form them. www.stars-rim.com
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  11. #36
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    You don't need aero profile.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  12. #37
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree, especially with fat tires LOL. It would be nice though if the appearance looked the same, or if the back wheel, being different, looked better, you know, cooler, like black or something.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  13. #38
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    If you are running wider tyres the benefits of an aero wheel are going to be eliminated.

    The new front wheel and tyre are far more aero that the old one being that the tyre is a .60 mm smaller and the fact it runs at 50 more psi makes a huge difference.

    Those wing nuts probably add some drag


    36/3 lacing on a Shimano high flange hub and 20 inch wheel

  14. #39
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    Priced wheels at some shops $65 - $139 complete. Price for old wheel fixed $27.

    I think I'll put the old wheel back on and sell the $200. bike.

    The old steel bike I'm using as backup is rock solid so screw the new sh*t. I'm not paying $150. for a freakin wheel when I can buy a complete old bike refurbed for the same price.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  15. #40
    HAMMER DOWN SSBully's Avatar
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    I'm confused! The OP weighs in at 215 lbs and he's being told that he has to have high spoke count wheels? It sounds to me, that in his case, it is more of an issue of having absolutely crappy wheels, and little to do with the spoke count.

    That being said, I PERSONALLY ride on a 20f/24r, with the front being radially laced and the rear being a 2x. Oh yeah, did I mention that I weigh in at 248 lbs? I've got him beat by 30+ lbs and I haven't had a single spoke or wheel issue on these wheels. Needless to say, they aren't crappy wheels to begin with.
    Aaaaawwwww look at all of those cute gears and shifters and cables and derailleurs! Isn't that special! Overall it's a sweet bike! I do have one question though...........................Do they make them for men?

  16. #41
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBully View Post
    I'm confused! The OP weighs in at 215 lbs and he's being told that he has to have high spoke count wheels? It sounds to me, that in his case, it is more of an issue of having absolutely crappy wheels, and little to do with the spoke count.

    That being said, I PERSONALLY ride on a 20f/24r, with the front being radially laced and the rear being a 2x. Oh yeah, did I mention that I weigh in at 248 lbs? I've got him beat by 30+ lbs and I haven't had a single spoke or wheel issue on these wheels. Needless to say, they aren't crappy wheels to begin with.
    I know this is

    The most important component to any wheel is the build, if the spokes are properly tensioned, then just about any wheel will hold up, which is why one rider with a 20 spoke wheel has no trouble while another rider with a 40 spoke wheel is breaking spokes all over the place.

    Most factory bicycle wheels are built on machines. The machines can not deal well with spoke windup, as you increase the tension, there is more propensity of a spoke to twist while the nipple is being turned. Machines deal with this two ways, they either ignore it, or leave the tension below the point where it will tend to twist. If the spokes have twisted, then the first time a load is placed on them, they will twist back. dropping the tension way down. Properly built machine wheels will leave the tension low, and then a person will finish the tensioning by hand, as people can more easily detect spoke windup and compensate for it.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBully View Post
    I'm confused! The OP weighs in at 215 lbs and he's being told that he has to have high spoke count wheels? It sounds to me, that in his case, it is more of an issue of having absolutely crappy wheels, and little to do with the spoke count.

    That being said, I PERSONALLY ride on a 20f/24r, with the front being radially laced and the rear being a 2x. Oh yeah, did I mention that I weigh in at 248 lbs? I've got him beat by 30+ lbs and I haven't had a single spoke or wheel issue on these wheels. Needless to say, they aren't crappy wheels to begin with.
    Well, the OP didn't initially give a whole lot more to work with beyond, they're the type with fewer spokes, which I'm breaking. So, the obvious response would be: Get some with more spokes.

    It's always interesting how environment and riding style can effect our realative experience with a given bit of equipment. I've bee riding the same pair of high spoke count wheels for over 8 years without any issues other than cog, tire replacement and an annual tension check. I've moved to a new location and in 5 months they're almost trashed. Been trued once, and are in need again. My riding style hasn't changed that dramaticly, my riding environment has. Urban pot holes, man hole covers, and water main covers are taking their toll. When I first got here, I looked at getting some low spoke count wheels. After riding my wifes Rolf's just a couple times (ssshhh, she doesn't know) and the above experience, I decided against it. I'm well convince that they wouldn't hold up here, while they probably would have at my previous residence.

    Out of curriousity what wheels are you riding?
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  18. #43
    HAMMER DOWN SSBully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Well, the OP didn't initially give a whole lot more to work with beyond, they're the type with fewer spokes, which I'm breaking. So, the obvious response would be: Get some with more spokes.

    It's always interesting how environment and riding style can effect our realative experience with a given bit of equipment. I've bee riding the same pair of high spoke count wheels for over 8 years without any issues other than cog, tire replacement and an annual tension check. I've moved to a new location and in 5 months they're almost trashed. Been trued once, and are in need again. My riding style hasn't changed that dramaticly, my riding environment has. Urban pot holes, man hole covers, and water main covers are taking their toll. When I first got here, I looked at getting some low spoke count wheels. After riding my wifes Rolf's just a couple times (ssshhh, she doesn't know) and the above experience, I decided against it. I'm well convince that they wouldn't hold up here, while they probably would have at my previous residence.

    Out of curriousity what wheels are you riding?
    "Machine built" Shimano WH-R500's, trued and tensioned/relieved by me! I live in northern NJ, that has some of the worst roads in America. While I agree that location can play a small part in the equation, rider skill, or lack thereof, and crappy wheels that aren't properly relieved, trued and tensioned has more to do with it than anything else.
    Aaaaawwwww look at all of those cute gears and shifters and cables and derailleurs! Isn't that special! Overall it's a sweet bike! I do have one question though...........................Do they make them for men?

  19. #44
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    ugh ... u guys know if I can swap in a triple crank on my old '70s era Schwinn LeTour 10-speed? The current crank is not a one-piece.

    I'm really ticked off about the wheel situation and feel like the old steel bike and wheels is the most reliable option for me. I sorely dislike spending money week after week for bike stuff. I never did that as a kid and I lived on my bike.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  20. #45
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    You can ride anything you want, right? But if a big guy 200+lbs is riding 20 or 24 spoke wheels there is little redundancy in the system. Even for a little guy if you break one spoke in those low spoke count wheels the bike is going to be rendered unrideable. If that isn't a big deal to you then go ahead. 36 spoke 700C wheels were a consensual standard for a real long time for a reason.

    For the OP, you can buy one of those cheap $69-$149 wheels if you want but you might be jumping from the frying pan to the fire. At minimum you want a skilled wheel builder to give them a look-see and proper tensioning and stress-relieving before you put them on the bike.

    Good luck,
    HB

  21. #46
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    My LBS guy is honest and repeated everything I've heard. He's gonna do his best to save me money cause he's knows where I fall in the class of riders. He said my wheel was actually a high quality wheel - even better than other 36 spoke wheels. Meaning - it's not just spoke count. He's gonna look for a good quality double wall 36 spoke wheel in an aero design. I'll see what he says and then decide. I was loving that bike until the spokes started popping.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  22. #47
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    It sounds like you're in very good hands!
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  23. #48
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    yes, but still pissed
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  24. #49
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    Yeah, I've been there with the broken spokes and it is extremely frustrating. That's why I started teaching myself the craft. I've gone from breaking spokes every 100 to 400 miles to an undefined time period: I haven't had a problem since I started tensioning my own wheels. Now I am testing my skills and accelerating my learning by building with light weight rims (still with 36 spokes) and riding them on my commuter bike with 23s.

    Good luck,
    HB

  25. #50
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Heckboy, how much do you weigh? And where do you get lightweight 36 spoke wheels these days?
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

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