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  1. #1
    Mass Mover takingcontrol's Avatar
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    Difference in rims?

    I'm looking to get my first custom wheels done, (velocity deep v) and I am wondering what the difference between machined and non machined is. (brake surface I believe).

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    Didn't I just read you about wheels, weight and such ???
    Anyway.. machined and non both relate to brakes - yes
    Having read you earlier, I would strongly recommend a box rim; lower profile, more compliant yet very strong as well as greater lateral strength.
    Mavic Open Pros or Open Sports come to mind
    Some may disagree with me on the "V" s but.... I'm just sayin'

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    Mass Mover takingcontrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old and new View Post
    Didn't I just read you about wheels, weight and such ???
    Anyway.. machined and non both relate to brakes - yes
    Having read you earlier, I would strongly recommend a box rim; lower profile, more compliant yet very strong as well as greater lateral strength.
    Mavic Open Pros or Open Sports come to mind
    Some may disagree with me on the "V" s but.... I'm just sayin'
    LOL I'm not sure which post you mean, I understand what kind of rims I need, I just am not sure what the difference between machined and non machined is on the V's. Both rims are for rim brakes so I was wondering if it was a preference or what.

  4. #4
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Non machined for fixies since they don't use a brake. They are able to color the entire rim surface for cool factor.

    Machined is for bikes that use brakes. The side of the rim is machined and leaved an exposed surface for the brakes to grip. Usually come in trick finishes too for th cool type fixie riders.

    If you're riding a normal type bike, then get the MACHINED!

    OP's compared to A Deep V for durability? Hehehehehe!

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    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    No, non machined aren't for rim brakes.

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    Mass Mover takingcontrol's Avatar
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    Thank you

  7. #7
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    IMO, Deep-V's are overkill for "normal" road riding unless you want to make a wheel with 28 or fewer spokes. Velocity Fusion rims are my choice for my next set of wheels. My last build- a Velocity Aero with 36 spokes- has been perfect ever since I built it.

    FWIW: non-machined anodized rims are fine with rim brakes. The color-anodized ones will look pretty ratty once the brakes wear away the top layer of anodizing, but braking usually improves at that point. I prefer them over machined rims: they last that much longer since they start out with more material.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Non machined for fixies since they don't use a brake. They are able to color the entire rim surface for cool factor.
    Sorry, Beanz, but not all brakes are rim brakes! Those of us who use coaster brakes, hand-operated hub brakes, disc brakes, etc. don't need to pay for the additional cost of machining a braking surface into the rim...

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    Gears? CliftonGK1's Avatar
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    Additional cost? I hope the $3.00 difference isn't going to break the bank!
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  10. #10
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Jeff, In Clydeland, overkill is a good thing.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


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  11. #11
    Mass Mover takingcontrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    Jeff, In Clydeland, overkill is a good thing.
    ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ look at my signature....NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓

  12. #12
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    Sorry, Beanz, but not all brakes are rim brakes! Those of us who use coaster brakes, hand-operated hub brakes, disc brakes, etc. don't need to pay for the additional cost of machining a braking surface into the rim...
    True! I overlooked that but the general idea was to inform the OP that the machined surface is used for a braking surface with standard roadie calipers.

  13. #13
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by takingcontrol View Post
    ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ look at my signature....NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓
    Oookkkaaayyy....

    I'm on the right side of your scale (220 pounds now that I'm putting on the winter insulation), but I still think Deep-V's are overkill. They're too narrow to mount a decent-width tire. In your case, TC, a 35mm width tire is the absolute minimum I'd ride on on the roads around Independance. (Smooth roads, but still some areas of chipseal.) A 700x35C tire would work best on a Velocity Synergy or Chukker rim- 5mm wider than the Fusion, Aero or Aerohead.
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  14. #14
    Insane Bicycle Mechanic Jeff Wills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    Jeff, In Clydeland, overkill is a good thing.
    Yeah, well... once upon a time I built a set of wheels with Schwinn steel cruiser rims, 12-gauge spokes, and Sturmey-Archer drum brakes. I then put blackwall cruiser tires and thick-wall "thorn-resistant" inner tubes on them. I think each wheel weighed 12 pounds complete.

    They were sure good for going downhill!

    I know there's tandem teams that are about TC's weight and are riding wheels as I've described with no issues. It's my opinion that the quality of the build, more than number of spokes or parts used, that determines the durability of the wheel.

    BTW, Tom: love the avatar. One of my tabbies qualifies as a Clyde: 21 pounds of floor-creaking cat.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by takingcontrol View Post
    I'm looking to get my first custom wheels done, (velocity deep v) and I am wondering what the difference between machined and non machined is. (brake surface I believe).
    Any real Clydesdale should be looking at the Velocity Chukker, not the Deep V...

    The Chukker is probably the strongest 36h 'normal' rim going that has a braking surface.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
    Oookkkaaayyy....

    I'm on the right side of your scale (220 pounds now that I'm putting on the winter insulation), but I still think Deep-V's are overkill. They're too narrow to mount a decent-width tire. In your case, TC, a 35mm width tire is the absolute minimum I'd ride on on the roads around Independance. (Smooth roads, but still some areas of chipseal.) A 700x35C tire would work best on a Velocity Synergy or Chukker rim- 5mm wider than the Fusion, Aero or Aerohead.

    Talk about overkill! 35mmtires are the minimum??? I use 23's and 25's on my single and even on my tandem and I have to ride two miles of dirt road from my house to the nearest pavement! Before anyone buys tires that big they better make sure they not only fit on the rim but also don't hit the frame of the bike. Neither my single or tandem will accept tires bigger than 25's.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  17. #17
    Mass Mover takingcontrol's Avatar
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    I am currently using a Weinmann double wall rim with 32's on it and have not had any problems aside from an occasional broken spoke. I 'm pretty sure that I can ride a narrower tire.

  18. #18
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    No, non machined aren't for rim brakes.
    Sorry, but nonmachined rims have been used for years with rim brakes. I have a set of Salsa Delgados that aren't machined and they work just fine. Functionally, they work just as well as machined rims. Many nonmachined rims have an annoying bump at the joint that can take quite a while to wear down.

    Machining does make for a smoother, if slightly thinner, braking surface. Given the choice, I go for machined over nonmachined
    Stuart Black
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    Overkill? no way. Wheels are what keep ya up, off the ground! Having wheels that can handle your weight/riding style, and stay straight and true, that is a good. 35c tires on a ROAD bike are absolutely overkill. 35c tires are for comfy hybrids. Even my hybrid has 28's on it!

    Velocity also makes the deep v in a mountain bike rim, Mountain biking, where no amount of strength is overkill

  20. #20
    afraid of whales Mr IGH's Avatar
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    If you weigh 400lbs, I'd go with a rim that weighs at least 600gms, 36H, 2.0mm spokes

    Mavic 319 600gms
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    Sun Ryno lite 600gms
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  21. #21
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
    If you weigh 400lbs, I'd go with a rim that weighs at least 600gms, 36H, 2.0mm spokes

    Mavic 319 600gms
    WTB DD 630gms
    Salsa Semi Disc 570gms
    Sun Ryno lite 600gms
    Rim weight has nothing...or very little...to do with wheel strength. Rim breakage is a rather rare occurence and usually results from having the spokes too tight or too loose. How often do you hear someone complaining about a rim breaking? How often do you hear about spoke breakage?

    All of the heavy lifting in terms of wheel strength comes from the spokes. And the spokes are the most frequently overlooked part of the equation. Everybody says "Give me a good rim and a good hub. Spokes? Whatever." That's entirely the wrong attitude to take towards wheel building.

    Pick the spokes first. By choosing an Aerohead rim, takingcontrol has already gone a good way down that path (he just doesn't know it). The reason the Aerohead is a good choice for Clydes is the shorter spoke length (short = stronger). If he were to choose a triple butted spoke like an DT Alpine III, he'd have a superior wheel.
    Stuart Black
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Hill-Pumper's Avatar
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    Any thoughts on the Mavic CXP22 or A319. The reason I ask is TC is on a budget and these are options that BWW can do for him for around $200. Just looking for some input on those who might have ran them.

  23. #23
    afraid of whales Mr IGH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    Rim weight has nothing...or very little...to do with wheel strength. Rim breakage is a rather rare occurence and usually results from having the spokes too tight or too loose. How often do you hear someone complaining about a rim breaking? How often do you hear about spoke breakage?....
    Correctly built wheels don't break spokes.

    When a correctly built wheel fails, it's due to hitting large obstacles (potholes, curbs etc). The failure I am speaking of is permanent out-of-true rim, not breakage.

    Heavier rims directly correlate with resistance to deflection when hitting obstacles. This assumes modern design, any of the rims I listed are correctly designed so the weight does correctly with increased resistance to permanent deflection.

    Thicker spokes also strenghten a wheels resistance to permanent deflection due to potholes/curbs.

    I've built over 1000 wheels and even built Lon Haldemen's 24 spoke wheels he rode in RAAM.
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  24. #24
    afraid of whales Mr IGH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill-Pumper View Post
    Any thoughts on the Mavic CXP22 or A319....
    319 is a great rim, I use them on my MTB and beat the crap out of them. A perfect clyde rim.
    IGH's, Dyno Hubs, LED lights and old frames

  25. #25
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
    Correctly built wheels don't break spokes.

    When a correctly built wheel fails, it's due to hitting large obstacles (potholes, curbs etc). The failure I am speaking of is permanent out-of-true rim, not breakage.

    Heavier rims directly correlate with resistance to deflection when hitting obstacles. This assumes modern design, any of the rims I listed are correctly designed so the weight does correctly with increased resistance to permanent deflection.

    Thicker spokes also strenghten a wheels resistance to permanent deflection due to potholes/curbs.

    I've built over 1000 wheels and even built Lon Haldemen's 24 spoke wheels he rode in RAAM.
    Spoke breakage is such a common occurrence that I don't believe that wheels can be built that absolutely won't break spokes. The spokes on a wheel naturally go through a tension/detension cycle when in use because of the structure of the wheel. This puts a lot of repeated stress on the wheel which can lead to failure of the elbow. It's not going to happen with each spoke and may depend on the crystal structure of the metal as well as other factors. People say that they can build a wheel that 'never fails' but I wonder how much of that is boasting or luck. I'm sure in your 1000 wheels, you've had a few that have broken spokes.

    The structure of the wheel is such that it isn't the rim that keeps the wheel from laterally bending, i.e. tacoing. Even that mode of failure is pretty rare. The spokes are what keep the rim from bending to the sides. If the rim tacos, it's because of uneven stress on the spokes and/or spoke weakness not due to the rim's strength. Again, the rim is pretty much along for the ride.

    Weight of the rim has little to do with the rim's ability to resist lateral deflection. If anything, the triangular structure of the Aerohead should make the rim stronger. There is less ability for rim to twist as is necessary for a permanent deflection of the rim.

    Thicker spokes, specifically spokes with thicker heads and elbows, do strengthen a wheel's resistance to permanent deflection...just as spokes with a shorter length do.
    Stuart Black
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    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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