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  1. #26
    Senior Member cyclist2000's Avatar
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    My two favorite brands of shorts are Assos and Gore. The Assos use a compression fabric and are very comfortable. Both are very expensive but are worth the money.
    If you are wearing cycling short every day then get two pair and hand wash and line dry the other pair.

    Cycling can be an expensive habit, but if you avoid the temptation of needing new stuff or the latest and greatest then the initial investment is the big cost.
    I don't do vintage, I bought them new, rode them, kept them. Now they are just old bikes
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  2. #27
    Senior Member TJClay's Avatar
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    Dont worry about your wheels, as long as you keep them on the ground and dont hit too many potholes you'll be fine. I've been on 20 front/24 rear since i weighed 255 and never had a problem in almost 4000 miles. Best thing you can do is just ride and dont look back.

  3. #28
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kh6idf View Post
    Good choices on the stuff you got with your bike. I rode with cheap shorts for a year, they were OK, but got a better pair at about twice the price when they were on sale. Should have just got the expensive shorts to begin with. I wash my shorts, jersey and socks in the sink with a little laundry detergent after every ride, rinse and then wring the water out of them and hang up to dry. They are ready to go the next day. The jersey is worth getting, you can find some quite inexpensive ones, my favorite I got at Performance bike for about $20 on sale. Two things make it worthwhile, one is the pockets in back and the other is the fabric, sweat passes right through and evaporates unlike a cotton t-shirt which will get soaking wet. Plus you can get colors that make you very visible to cars.

    The only pieces of essential equipment I didn't see on your list you got with your bike would be a floor pump and helmet, but I assume you have both of those. Also carry a couple of tire levers (I recommend the yellow Pedro's plastic ones) with your spare tube and either a frame pump (I have the Lezyne hp road drive mini pump, it's great) or CO2 inflator. I recently got my first flat of this year and had no problem getting back on the road thanks to carrying the pump, tire levers and spare tube.

    Enjoy riding you new bike!
    Thanks! Since I've been commuting for about 14 months, I've got a bunch of the basic stuff already and am filling in holes ASAP - the postman's been cursing me a lot lately, since different stuff has been arriving from Amazon every day.

    I've got a CO2 system on the way (wish I'd bought it at the LBS, but didn't) and already have the tire levers.

    And I now see the difference between regular shirts and the jerseys. I didn't know that. It's also a great idea because I'd like to have some fluorescent green on even when I'm riding during the day - can't be too visible. How many jerseys do you have? Do you wash them on a daily basis like the shorts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclist2000 View Post
    My two favorite brands of shorts are Assos and Gore. The Assos use a compression fabric and are very comfortable. Both are very expensive but are worth the money.
    If you are wearing cycling short every day then get two pair and hand wash and line dry the other pair.

    Cycling can be an expensive habit, but if you avoid the temptation of needing new stuff or the latest and greatest then the initial investment is the big cost.
    There's always something to buy, I swear. I spent $230 on bric-a-brac for my commuter bike before plunking down $1,500 for all this road bike stuff. I did get a bunch of stuff that's good for either bike, like a Park Tools work stand. Had to get a new balaclava since winter's coming. Like I said, it's always something. Now I probably need more shorts/bibs and you guys have me curious about a jersey.

    Quote Originally Posted by TJClay View Post
    Dont worry about your wheels, as long as you keep them on the ground and dont hit too many potholes you'll be fine. I've been on 20 front/24 rear since i weighed 255 and never had a problem in almost 4000 miles. Best thing you can do is just ride and dont look back.
    I was breaking spokes fairly often on my commuter there for a bit, but it's a much cheaper bike than my road bike. Plus it takes a pounding. I think the LBS I bought the road bike from got the back wheel on the commuter back in shape when I brought it in for repairs and it hasn't given me any problems since.

  4. #29
    Starting over CraigB's Avatar
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    Jerseys can go without washing for as long as you can stand the smell (or as long as those around you can). They aren't the potential source for bacterial infections that shorts are.
    Craig in Indy

  5. #30
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigB View Post
    Jerseys can go without washing for as long as you can stand the smell (or as long as those around you can). They aren't the potential source for bacterial infections that shorts are.
    I've worn the same jersey on back to back rides without any harmful effects to me, or anyone.

  6. #31
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    I took my bike out for my first solo ride, to mixed results. I fell once trying to get clipped in. I nearly got decapitated in traffic once after I was clipped in and moving and it was suddenly surrounding me. I developed my first, and nowhere near last, case of "road bike tourette's." I mean to tell ya, I was workin' blue. Somewhere up in heaven, Richard Pryor and George Carlin were smiling.

    I gotta admit I probably made a bad decision here. My problem is I hate limitations. What I mean by that is that I want to be able to do whatever, whenever. Like right now, my car is in the shop. So I tried to take my road bike around some of the unbusy back roads of my neighborhood. There's still way too much traffic. I can't ride my road bike unless I have a car to take it out to some country road somewhere where I ride for more than 15 seconds without having to unclip and start over again. I wish I'd taken this money and spent it on a better commuter bike.

    Well, it's done now, and I'm gonna make the best of it. Two questions that popped up:

    1. Some of the roads in my neighborhood haven't been paved since the Nixon administration. They're rutty, to put it mildly. Plus there's little branches everywhere from a recent powerful wind storm. As such, the bike got jostled to death. I can take it, but I'm scared those little tires can't. I also avoided several speed bumps for that same reason. How much punishment can a road bike take?

    2. I got a Third Eye bar end mirror, which fits in the left bar end. Do any of you use this, and is it as completely useless for you as it was for me? I could never get it set vaguely right, it never helped by any means. I realize I'm used to the Mirrycle mirror on my commuter, so I'm totally spoiled. I need a rear view mirror that works - does one actually exist, including ones that clip on glasses or helmets (not my favorite solution, but anything will do)? If one actually exists, what is it?

    Does anyone use this mirror? http://www.mirrycle.com/road_mirror.php
    I'm a hyooge fan of the mountain bike mirror on my commuter bike.

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by john423; 10-28-10 at 12:55 PM.

  7. #32
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    When I first got clipless pedals, I practiced in the parking lot at the condo complex I was living in- you DO NOT want to go for your first ride on the road! It takes a while to get used to the twisting motion to get in/out of them- And, Inevitably, you'll forget that you're clipped in once or twice. It's embarrassing in a parking lot, but could be downright deadly in traffic.

    Once you get used to them, it will become second nature, you'll clip in and out without even thinking.

    I've never found a mirror that I got any use out of- Though in fairness, I haven't tried all that many.

  8. #33
    Cat 5 field stuffer bbeasley's Avatar
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    John423,

    I went from a cheap cruiser to a nice road bike with a bunch of goodies. First few times out between the @#^%^^ clipless pedals and the &^%*&^% stock seat I was not having fun. I took the clipless pedals off and bought a real seat and cycling shorts. Things got better instantly. I got more comfortable with the bike and now after 500 miles I'm trying the @#$%@#$% clipless pedals again. I now like the clipless pedals for pedaling but still can't start off gracefully. Maybe with time.

    To much new stuff all at once can be dangerous and frustrating. Consider ditching the clipless pedals for a bit and go have fun on your new bike!

  9. #34
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    And how do you Clydes who are losing deal with going down a pant size? Buy more shorts? I hope to drop from an XXL to an XL relatively soon, so I'd hate to buy tons of XXL shorts and turn around and have to buy new ones.

    Can you try on bicycle shorts, considering you're supposed to wear them sans underwear? And do any of you wear them a couple of times before washing, or is that just nasty?

    I've gotta go to a laundromat to do clothes, and I'm not looking forward to the idea of having about 6-7 pairs of shorts to keep me from having to go to the laundromat every other day. Anybody ever just wash them by hand in a sink and hang 'em up somewhere to dry? I could always string up a clothesline in my apartment.
    First thing, I wouldn't buy tons of shorts if I was planning on shrinking, 1 or 2 pair should be fine.
    Second, to try them on you keep your underwear on, with briefs there shouldn't be a problem, boxers may put a little too much material in there though.
    Third, when you get home rinse them out, hang them in the bathroom over the shower rod to dry, jerseys can get the same treatment.

  10. #35
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andgott View Post
    When I first got clipless pedals, I practiced in the parking lot at the condo complex I was living in- you DO NOT want to go for your first ride on the road! It takes a while to get used to the twisting motion to get in/out of them- And, Inevitably, you'll forget that you're clipped in once or twice. It's embarrassing in a parking lot, but could be downright deadly in traffic.

    Once you get used to them, it will become second nature, you'll clip in and out without even thinking.

    I've never found a mirror that I got any use out of- Though in fairness, I haven't tried all that many.
    I don't really have a parking lot to practice in, especially during the daytime. There's an insurance place near me, maybe I can use their lot this weekend. It's a great idea. I got better with them as the ride progressed - I was holding on to a stop sign like an idiot and trying to get totally clipped in before making the bike go, which was a bad mistake. Eventually, I'd clip in with my left foot, get the bike started, then clip in with my right. It was getting much easier by the time I stopped. Clipping out was a problem the one time I took a spill, but that was it.

    I'll get the hang of that. I've gotta go check out a couple of the LBS in town to see if either has that Mirrycle road bike mirror. I'm way too spoiled by having a rear-view mirror on my commuter bike. I'm way too dependent on it at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbeasley View Post
    John423,

    I went from a cheap cruiser to a nice road bike with a bunch of goodies. First few times out between the @#^%^^ clipless pedals and the &^%*&^% stock seat I was not having fun. I took the clipless pedals off and bought a real seat and cycling shorts. Things got better instantly. I got more comfortable with the bike and now after 500 miles I'm trying the @#$%@#$% clipless pedals again. I now like the clipless pedals for pedaling but still can't start off gracefully. Maybe with time.

    To much new stuff all at once can be dangerous and frustrating. Consider ditching the clipless pedals for a bit and go have fun on your new bike!
    I don't know if I'll be having fun until I conquer this learning curve. I just need a session on a long road without a million stop signs and crap in my way. It's frustrating to me because I need a lot more practice time at a time when I'm doing a lot of work. I'd rather be riding, darn it. Plus the cold's closing in.

  11. #36
    Retro-guy
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    A couple of random comments, prompted by other posts:

    - A decent pair of gloves, with a bit of palm-padding, makes a lot of difference, and also helps to keep your bar-tape nice. (Fingerless is my preference...)

    - The problem with bar-end rear-view mirrors is that they aren't always aimed in the right direction. I have a little mirror that clips onto the temple of my sunglasses. You quickly learn how to tilt your head a bit to aim the mirror. I NEVER rely on the mirror view to tell me its OK to move out into traffic (for example, to move from a RH-side bike lane, across the road to a left turn lane). I use the mirror to tell me that it MIGHT be clear, and then turn around to check for real.... (It's also good for staying aware of other cyclists who might be gaining on you!)

    - I also prefer shorts over bibs, and have a cheap pair of leg-warmers for colder days. Leg or arm warmers are good places to save money by getting off-brand products (such as the "in-house" offerings from Performance or Nashbar), whereas with shorts and bibs it is more of a "get what you pay for" situation.

    (On this same subject, I remember seeing an article in Bicycling magazine about where to pay a bit more, and where it was OK to stint a bit. If I recall right, some of the suggestions were:

    - Spend on shorts/bibs, stint on jerseys
    - Spend on shoes, stint on socks, gloves, etc.
    - Spend on tires, stint on tubes
    - Spend on sunglasses, stint on helmet

    (I kind of disagree with the last one, although the gist of their comment is that ALL helmets meet the same safety regulations, and will provide identical protection, so extra money is going toward a bit of weight reduction, perhaps better venting, and "style"...)

  12. #37
    Starting over CraigB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    Eventually, I'd clip in with my left foot, get the bike started, then clip in with my right. It was getting much easier by the time I stopped.
    Yes, and if you fumble a bit getting the second foot in right away, and find yourself slowing down too much to remain upright, don't be afraid to carefully apply force to that unclipped pedal to get through another revolution and keep yourself going before taking another stab at connecting. Sometimes it's more important to move quickly (and in a straight line) away from a stop than it is to get that second pedal engaged. Just be careful about it, as an unclipped cleated shoe has almost zero traction on a clipless pedal.
    Craig in Indy

  13. #38
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    I'm gonna go out later today and get some practice clipping in at what should be a deserted pretty big parking lot on the local college campus, then try to do some riding as suggested by a cue sheet by the local road club.

    I seem to do OK getting my unclipped shoe to do some pedaling, enough to get the bike going and get it coasting a bit so I can clip in. Probably because last ride I was constantly in a easy gear from pulling hills. I got a long way to go in this stuff, but I won't get close to competent unless I practice.

    Problem is, it's freaking cold out today, though it's supposed to warm up later in the afternoon. I guess I gotta get some leg warmers. Good idea about saving money on some stuff, rschleicher. I've tried to look at a Bicycling magazine before, and it seems to be a lot of stuff that doesn't apply to me, like the best $5,000 carbon bike frame. I'm still in a panic over spending $1,500. If I can spend $5,000 on a carbon bike frame, I've hit the lottery.

    Do you guys who ride road bikes ride year-round, or is there a time when you say "too cold," and away goes the road bike? This is why I wish I'd spent the money on a better commuter bike - I can commute year-round, generally. There was one stretch last year where it stayed at around 15 below for days, and that's too cold for me to bike, but otherwise, it was OK. I biked to work on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day last year.

  14. #39
    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    I'm gonna go out later today and get some practice clipping in at what should be a deserted pretty big parking lot on the local college campus...
    Great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    ...I've tried to look at a Bicycling magazine before, and it seems to be a lot of stuff that doesn't apply to me, like the best $5,000 carbon bike frame. I'm still in a panic over spending $1,500. If I can spend $5,000 on a carbon bike frame, I've hit the lottery...
    True. But those high-end bike pieces are just there to get you all excited. The demographics of the average cyclist is that they usually have higher income, and actually do buy the high-end machines, so Bicycling's advertisers are happy, too.

    If you look through it, they also do pieces on the lower end. And they also have some really great ideas about riding in general. Give it a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    ...Do you guys who ride road bikes ride year-round, or is there a time when you say "too cold," and away goes the road bike? This is why I wish I'd spent the money on a better commuter bike - I can commute year-round, generally. There was one stretch last year where it stayed at around 15 below for days, and that's too cold for me to bike, but otherwise, it was OK. I biked to work on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day last year.
    The type of bike won't make a difference in the temperature of the air. I only have one bike: a roadie (racer style, too). I commute to work on it, race on it, ride long easy rides on it... everything. But yeah: when I was younger, (27-ish) I'd ride year-'round. This was in upstate New York (Syracuse). We only didn't ride when it was below 20F degrees or there was snow on the roads.

    Now, I'm 42 and living in SoCal. When it rains, I don't ride Of course, when it rains here, it's usually colder, too (this morning: rain & 55-degrees), so it's not a great idea anyway. And drivers out here drive in the rain like drivers back in NY drove in snow: idiotically.

    Visit The C-Blog : the blog about cycling.

  15. #40
    Starting over CraigB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
    The demographics of the average cyclist is that they usually have higher income, and actually do buy the high-end machines, so Bicycling's advertisers are happy, too.
    I think that's probably dependent on age to some extent. When I was a young man it was more common than not that my fellow riders had incomes comparable to an average bike mechanic, and while they usually had nice bikes, those purchases were made at the expense of everything else in their lives. Their cars (for those who had them) were uniformly worth less than their bikes.

    While the entire pool of cyclists has probably gone up a bit in income (and age) since then, I suspect younger riders are still in economic circumstances similar to back then.
    Craig in Indy

  16. #41
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    How much punishment can a road bike take?
    Quite a bit! I ride light-weight carbon fiber frames and have never managed to destroy anything other than an inner tube by riding on bad pavement...

    Does anyone use this mirror? http://www.mirrycle.com/road_mirror.php
    I have one of those on my touring bike and love it. Rode with it from San Francisco down to Los Angeles last year and it worked great. I've tried several mirrors and the Mirrycle is the only one that's worked for me.

    That said, it can get buzzy if the road isn't smooth. Might be worse on a road bike with small tires than it is on my touring bike, which uses huge 700x35 tires. It's also easy to break. I banged mine on a door frame while pushing my bike into a hotel room in Oxnard and was surprised when it snapped off. I was able to repair it with JB Weld, but the mount isn't that sturdy.

  17. #42
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    I have one of those on my touring bike and love it. Rode with it from San Francisco down to Los Angeles last year and it worked great. I've tried several mirrors and the Mirrycle is the only one that's worked for me.

    That said, it can get buzzy if the road isn't smooth. Might be worse on a road bike with small tires than it is on my touring bike, which uses huge 700x35 tires. It's also easy to break. I banged mine on a door frame while pushing my bike into a hotel room in Oxnard and was surprised when it snapped off. I was able to repair it with JB Weld, but the mount isn't that sturdy.
    My thing is I've gotten so used to the one on my commuter bike I find myself looking for it on my road bike. I've got one on order with one of the LBS in town. I basically promised him I'd buy more crap if he had one in by Tuesday, it was comical. I've just gotten used to having a mirror. Problem with the one I have is when I would try to look at it, I'd swerve left, which is just no good at all.

    First real ride was a lot of bad - big problem was my left lower back seized up to the point where I just couldn't ride in position. I'd stand up on the pedals just to get some relief. Plus I thought my butt was gonna fall off. It feels like the shorts are no help at all.

    Is this right? The front of the seat isn't parallel with the top tube - it's cocked to the left maybe about 10 degrees. If it should be straight, I can try to adjust it before riding Sunday. Plus I wanna look at trying to help my back woes.

    And what the heck am I gonna do about my poor back? Time to Google.

  18. #43
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by rschleicher View Post
    - Spend on sunglasses, stint on helmet

    (I kind of disagree with the last one, although the gist of their comment is that ALL helmets meet the same safety regulations, and will provide identical protection, so extra money is going toward a bit of weight reduction, perhaps better venting, and "style"...)
    Skip the sunglasses entirely.

  19. #44
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    Is this right? The front of the seat isn't parallel with the top tube - it's cocked to the left maybe about 10 degrees. If it should be straight, I can try to adjust it before riding Sunday. Plus I wanna look at trying to help my back woes.
    Do you mean you have the nose of the saddle pointing left by ten degrees? Good Lord! Did I miss a post where you wrote about having a crooked pelvis? Or am I misunderstanding you?

    Tilting the nose slightly one direction or another is a way to compensate for a crooked pelvis, but even my bikes don't have saddles turned out that much.

  20. #45
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    Do you mean you have the nose of the saddle pointing left by ten degrees? Good Lord! Did I miss a post where you wrote about having a crooked pelvis? Or am I misunderstanding you?

    Tilting the nose slightly one direction or another is a way to compensate for a crooked pelvis, but even my bikes don't have saddles turned out that much.
    OK, so maybe 10 degrees is an exaggeration. I'm no math whiz. But I'd say 5 degrees is no exaggeration, and I don't have a crooked pelvis. I may have knocked it off center or something trying to pull one of the death hills I pulled today on random country road. I doubt it.

    I Googled and found an old thread about back woes - sounds like it might be my old buddy chronically tight hamstring, which knocked me out of running a year or so ago. So now I'm gonna have to start stretching 3 hours a day to try to take care of something stretching for 3 hours a day didn't help before. Whoopee.

    I done think I screwed up here.

  21. #46
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    OK, so maybe 10 degrees is an exaggeration. I'm no math whiz. But I'd say 5 degrees is no exaggeration, and I don't have a crooked pelvis. I may have knocked it off center or something trying to pull one of the death hills I pulled today on random country road. I doubt it.

    I Googled and found an old thread about back woes - sounds like it might be my old buddy chronically tight hamstring, which knocked me out of running a year or so ago. So now I'm gonna have to start stretching 3 hours a day to try to take care of something stretching for 3 hours a day didn't help before. Whoopee.

    I done think I screwed up here.
    Sound like a fit problem. Either you didn't get the bike fitted, or the fitter screwed up.

    I have tight hamstrings and I don't need to stretch for three hours. A few minutes a day at most.

  22. #47
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    Sound like a fit problem. Either you didn't get the bike fitted, or the fitter screwed up.

    I have tight hamstrings and I don't need to stretch for three hours. A few minutes a day at most.
    He did ask if I had low back problems (which I thought I didn't, at least not since I've dropped a bunch of weight) and said he could set the handlebars up slightly differently if I did. I'm gonna look at the owner's manual when I get home and figure out if it's something I can try myself. If so, I'll do it Sunday. If not, I'll take it to him Monday.

    I can definitely fix the seat leaning to the left, I got that.

    I would stretch my hamstrings constantly (two or three different stretches) both before and after running and my left one would still kill me. It just never seemed to stretch out.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Seve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    2. I got a Third Eye bar end mirror, which fits in the left bar end. Do any of you use this, and is it as completely useless for you as it was for me? I could never get it set vaguely right, it never helped by any means. I realize I'm used to the Mirrycle mirror on my commuter, so I'm totally spoiled. I need a rear view mirror that works - does one actually exist, including ones that clip on glasses or helmets (not my favorite solution, but anything will do)? If one actually exists, what is it?

    Does anyone use this mirror? http://www.mirrycle.com/road_mirror.php
    I'm a hyooge fan of the mountain bike mirror on my commuter bike.

    Thanks again.
    I use the same mirror on both of my bikes for a number of reasons including a restriction in my ability to rotate my head to the left.
    http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...7#BVRRWidgetID
    It also folds easily out of harm's way so it doesn't interfere with leaning the bike up against a wall etc. if you install it with some care.
    I originally bought it because of the price and put it on my hybrid to try it. Once I got my road bike I had to get another one.
    Ymmv but @ $8 it's not the end of the world if you don't like it.

  24. #49
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by john423 View Post
    He did ask if I had low back problems (which I thought I didn't, at least not since I've dropped a bunch of weight) and said he could set the handlebars up slightly differently if I did. I'm gonna look at the owner's manual when I get home and figure out if it's something I can try myself. If so, I'll do it Sunday. If not, I'll take it to him Monday.

    I can definitely fix the seat leaning to the left, I got that.

    I would stretch my hamstrings constantly (two or three different stretches) both before and after running and my left one would still kill me. It just never seemed to stretch out.
    You sound more and more like me. I have a left leg that doesn't extend all the way. Still, you shouldn't need to spend hours stretching hamstrings.

  25. #50
    Rain, rain go away john423's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    You sound more and more like me. I have a left leg that doesn't extend all the way. Still, you shouldn't need to spend hours stretching hamstrings.
    I straightened the seat, and I think that helped, but I also found a killer hamstring stretch in another thread somewhere. I did it before leaving and after arriving where I was starting from with the bike, and it made a big difference. I did it after I got finished by lying on the ground under the car and another bicyclist stopped to see if I was OK - "yep, just stretching." I gotta try to do it one more time tonight. I also did some low back stretching.

    Now if only my incredible butt pain would cease. I think my saddle's a 2x4. One thread said I just needed to keep riding, that I'd toughen up. I'm still not sure I'm riding the road bike right - probably riding it too much like a commuter bike because that's what I'm used to. Probably putting too much weight on the seat.

    Today was a huge advance in that I don't really go out on a route, per se, I just go places until I run out of road - and I found myself on a very busy road for a very long stretch of time. Definitely got me used to the feeling of traffic constantly passing me. I was also riding it at a point in my ride where I was pretty out of gas and using my easier gears throughout, so I was hitting a top speed of about 10 mph.

    The road bike learning curve is huge, I'm coming to find out.

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