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Thread: Wheel Help

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Wheel Help

    I need some advice on a rear wheel for my bike. The original crappy one broke a while back. Some of the spokes were over tightened and cracked the rim (not by the shop I go to now). My LBS recommended I get a Mavic CXP22, 36 spoke rear as a good strong, reasonably priced wheel. It rode great for a while, but then I broke a spoke. Then it happened again, and again, and again yesterday ( and maybe one other time, I lost count). The manager of the shop said if it happened again they would warranty it out, so I left it at the shop yesterday morning before our club ride, which I was on my way to when I broke the spoke. The mechanic and manager weren't there, so i left it with a note. I haven't heard back from them yet. I was going to see if they would let me apply the cost of the wheel towards a stronger one since they are going to warranty it out anyway, or if they thought it was just a bad wheel or something else.
    I weigh 250, down from about 285 when I got the bike, and that Mavic wheel should hold me no problem. I know tensioning wheels is somewhat of an art and I feel maybe the first broken spoke wasn't repaired correctly and the problem just kind of spiraled out of control, so I don't know what to think. I do have full confidence in the shop and their head mechanic and his abilities and knowledge. I'll call them tomorrow afternoon if I haven't heard from them by then.
    So I came here for suggestions. Is there a reasonably priced off the shelf wheel for 700x23 tires that is pretty bulletproof? I'm not really interested in shelling out for a custom built rear wheel at this point because my weight shouldn't be a problem for most standard wheels, plus I'm still losing. What would you guys do in my situation?

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    MR. Beanz will tell yout htat you need a deep v. I would tend to agree. I weight a little bit less than you and have mine built with 32 spokes and it's been problem free. FWIW, on my first bike last year that got me back into the cycling craze i had my rear wheel crack at drive side spoke holes so it's not too surprising if this happened on a lower end bike. 36 spokes will mean each spoke will be under less tension so less risk of cracking the rim there and also if you do break a spoke, you have 35 others to pick up the slack and should still be able to easily ride home to get it reparied.

    I also built a set of wheels with "Cold Fusion" rims from IRO Cycle. They are unbadged Velocity fusion rims which are a little bit lighter than deep v's, probably not quite as durable but still a pretty tough rim and they were only $15 each vs $50 for a deep v


    EDIT: I just looked up the specs on that mavic rim you are currently riding. Do you know who built the wheel? thats a pretty beefy wheel and I'm pretty surprised that you would have problems that you mentioned except if it wasn't properly built. having that rim rebuilt with all new spokes by a respected wheelbuilder is probably a viable option.

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    EDIT: I just looked up the specs on that mavic rim you are currently riding. Do you know who built the wheel? thats a pretty beefy wheel and I'm pretty surprised that you would have problems that you mentioned except if it wasn't properly built. having that rim rebuilt with all new spokes by a respected wheelbuilder is probably a viable option.
    It was just an off the shelf wheel at the shop. They just threw it on and checked it for true. I was under the impression it was a pretty strong wheel too, so I'll wait to see what the shop thinks I should do. I'm looking to spend as little as possible to get the wheel back up to snuff, so I'd be pretty happy if they let me apply the price of the wheel to an upgrade, or if they just replaced it and made sure the tension was 100% correct before I start riding it.

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    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    I've grown disenchanted with Mavic wheels. They seem to have a bit of a rep for spoke pull-through.

    At 250, your weight is still gonna stress a wheel. Not as much as my 260, or someone else's 280, but more than 180.

    For a training, everyday wheel, I'd recommend a Velocity Aerohead rim, 32-, 14g spokes, Ultegra hub (or equivalent). I use this for my PowerTap wheel (built by Psimet) and after 1,500 miles, it's been bullet-proof. A local shop should be able to build one up within a week, and it shouldn't cost more than any "off the shelf" wheel. And because it's handbuilt, it should be better than the "off the shelf", machine built wheels anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tardman91 View Post
    I need some advice on a rear wheel for my bike. The original crappy one broke a while back. Some of the spokes were over tightened and cracked the rim (not by the shop I go to now). My LBS recommended I get a Mavic CXP22, 36 spoke rear as a good strong, reasonably priced wheel. It rode great for a while, but then I broke a spoke. Then it happened again, and again, and again yesterday ( and maybe one other time, I lost count). The manager of the shop said if it happened again they would warranty it out, so I left it at the shop yesterday morning before our club ride, which I was on my way to when I broke the spoke. The mechanic and manager weren't there, so i left it with a note. I haven't heard back from them yet. I was going to see if they would let me apply the cost of the wheel towards a stronger one since they are going to warranty it out anyway, or if they thought it was just a bad wheel or something else.
    That's what cheap machine built wheels do.

    The number of stress cycles survived (about 750 a mile) depends on average stress (parts of the elbows were never taken past their elastic limit and therefore retain high stress) and magnitude of the stress cycle (as a big guy you make the rims bend more as they go around with greater length and tension changes in the spokes).

    You can also break non-drive side spokes when the wheel doesn't have enough tension because they bend (high stress cycle magnitude as they bend back and forth like paper clips).

    So I came here for suggestions. Is there a reasonably priced off the shelf wheel for 700x23 tires that is pretty bulletproof?
    No since it's usually not a materials problem and the manufacturers aren't going to cut into their profit margins on low (or even not so low) cost wheels with expensive hand labor or stress relieving machines

    I'm not really interested in shelling out for a custom built rear wheel at this point because my weight shouldn't be a problem for most standard wheels, plus I'm still losing.
    $50-$100 in labor (depends on where you live and you need to find a competent wheel builder which I would not count on) + $36 in spokes and nipples will cost less than a new rear wheel that's likely to fail in the same way.

    What would you guys do in my situation?
    Buy a copy of The Bicycle Wheel, Minoura truing stand, Park portable dish tool, Park spoke wrench in the appropriate size, and Park TM-1 tension meter.

    Get a set of DT 2.0/1.8 Competition spokes in the appropriate lengths (aim for the nipple slot) and DT 12mm brass nipples.

    DT 2.0/1.8 spokes in even and odd lengths for $.69

    Rebuild the rear wheel.

    Pay special attention to the section on stress relieving (I prefer bending spokes around each other with a brass drift) and also note the part about spoke line correction.

    Enjoy until you bend the rim on an obstacle or wear out the braking surfaces. Upon doing so tape an identical replacement rim next to the old one, transfer spokes and nipples one at a time, and tension + true the wheel.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 07-24-11 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post

    For a training, everyday wheel, I'd recommend a Velocity Aerohead rim, 32-, 14g spokes, Ultegra hub (or equivalent).
    The Aerohead is a 400 gram 19mm deep rim. While a 140-160 pound bicycle racer stands a good chance of wearing out the braking surfaces before bending it on a road obstacle as a Clydestale you don't. It took me 12-14 years before I bent my 400 gram Mavic Reflex clincher front - OK at 145 pounds, OK at 170, half a season over 200.

    Try a Velocity Deep V (520g 30mm) or Fusion (465g 25mm).

    Some people like the Kinlin XR-300 but I don't. It's the first rim I've encountered where I couldn't unmount Continental tires without tools or mount without tools until I replaced the Velox rim tape with Veloplugs. The first three measured a round 578mm, round 579.5, and not quite round 578x579. Tension did not end up as uniform as I get with Mavic rims.

    Butted spokes (2.0/1.8) are also less likely to have problems than straight gauge especially with shallower rim profiles.

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    Senior Member jr59's Avatar
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    Very good advice from Drew.

    I would also tell you to look at the Dyad rims.
    But to run Dyads you need to run 28 series tires.
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    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    Try a Velocity Deep V (520g 30mm) or Fusion (465g 25mm).
    Oops... quite right. I misspoke. Deep V is the one Psimet used for me. Sorry.

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    Sounds like you got a bum wheel. That happens.

    I've been nothing but thrilled with my Neuvation M-28's. I had a wheelbuilder go over them and make sure everything was properly tensioned before riding though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    I also built a set of wheels with "Cold Fusion" rims from IRO Cycle. They are unbadged Velocity fusion rims which are a little bit lighter than deep v's, probably not quite as durable but still a pretty tough rim and they were only $15 each vs $50 for a deep v
    I have Cold Fusion wheels on both my singlespeed roadie and my SSCX bike, and they're nigh indestructable. Thursday's race was like the surface of the moon; the course was bushwhacked through a farm field so it was full of tractor tire washboard, lots of fist-sized rocks half buried in loose dirt, bad transitions to pavement, etc. I also ride those wheels on a local MTB trail with lots of 4"x4" 'water bars' (erosion controls) and I've never had an issue with them.
    I build mine up with IRO hubs and DT Swiss Champion 2.0 straight spokes. 32h, 3 cross, brass nipples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    MR. Beanz will tell yout htat you need a deep v. I would tend to agree. I weight a little bit less than you and have mine built with 32 spokes and it's been problem free..
    ........I buy my Deep Vs online for about $60. I build my own but in your case, I'd buy the rim online, then take it to the shop to fora build. The shop will charge you $90 for a Deep V.

    No, I don't care to support my local LBS after wasting money on several mickey mouse wheel builds and service over the years. You see what happened to your new wheel, gets old after a while. Now I'm all about me!

    FTR, I got 20,000 miles out of a Deep V, still true. I now have over 9,000 miles on my current wheel (same profile as the V) that I built with 28 spokes at 250'ish lbs.

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll see what the shop says when I talk to them. I'll inquire about a custom build. Sounds like they're not nearly as expensive as I thought. I'm sure with 2 locations and 39 years in the area, if they don't have a wheel builder they'll be able to hook me up with one.

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    Nigel nfmisso's Avatar
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    rebuild it yourself....I like Wheelsmith spokes, see Peter White's site for more information on why.

    I amover 300#; and since I started rebuilding and building wheels; I have not had a spoke failure. The components that go into a wheel play a very small part; it is the build tension, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, repeat until truing is no longer needed.

    The tension of the spokes must be high enough so that they never go into compression. If the spokes are cycling tension-compression-tension as the wheel rotates, they will fail, first one, then another, etc. If a spoke fails, there is something over a 90% chance that a second one will fail, if a 2nd one fails, there is a 100% chance that they will all fail shortly there after.

    You can take an off the shelf machine built wheel, and apply the tension, true, stress relieve, true, stress relieve, repeat until truing is no longer needed process to it, and it will be as good as any other wheel.

    In the case of your current wheel, you need all new spokes.
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    ultimately, I think the issue is not with your rim at all. most likely it was a poorly machine built wheel. once you break a spoke, the others have to do more work, then they start breaking. your at the point now where all the remaining spokes have been weakened and they all need replacing. the good news is that it's just a matter of paying for spokes and labor to get it rebuilt which should be $50 for spokes and $50 for labor. if the spokes are in stock, they can probably have that wheel rebuilt for you same day or within a couple of days.

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    one more thought. is 700x23 an absolute must? if your bike can fit wider tires and your willing to consider going a bit larger, it presents a couple of other sturdy options. on my commuter I'm using Mavic a 719 which is a wide touring rim. probably the smallest tire you can safely mount on it would be a 28c tho. i know my road bike doesn't have room for tires larger than 25c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    ultimately, I think the issue is not with your rim at all. most likely it was a poorly machine built wheel. once you break a spoke, the others have to do more work, then they start breaking.
    No. Spokes fail due to fatigue unless you physically damage them as with an over-shifted chain.

    All the spokes in a side saw the same number of stress cycles and variation, have about the same average stress (residual from the elbow forming operation and spoke tension), and should fail in about the same number of wheel revolutions.

    your at the point now where all the remaining spokes have been weakened and they all need replacing. the good news is that it's just a matter of paying for spokes and labor to get it rebuilt which should be $50 for spokes and $50 for labor. if the spokes are in stock, they can probably have that wheel rebuilt for you same day or within a couple of days.
    Although wheel building is so easy that even school children can do it (Jobst tested his book by having each of his sons build a pair) some "mechanics" remain ignorant and don't do a good job.

    You want to learn to do it yourself (it's about as hard as adjusting a front derailleur but takes a lot longer) or delegate to a reputable one man shop where you know who will be building the wheel (good shops can stick incompetent new guys wih the task).

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Can anyone recommend a good off the shelf wheel to get online? I'm really not interested in learning to build my own wheels right now. I'm going to talk to the shop tomorrow about my options and what they think. The manager will be back then. I'm thinking of picking up another rear wheel too so that I have one around so that I can ride if I run into this problem. Sitting at home stinks. That way I can also have a nice strong wheel to replace the rear wheel on my next road bike.

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    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Wow, money for nuttin'. Order this 36 spoke Deep V rim. Take it into the shop with your current 36 hole hub and tell them to build it. You will have a good wheel for a very long time!

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...eep-V+Rim.aspx



    These guys got a variety of colors for $63 in the Deep V.

    Heck, get one , have it built then go back later and have a lighter fusion or similar built for the front in a matching color.


    http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/produ...l?limit=96&p=3
    Last edited by Mr. Beanz; 07-26-11 at 06:40 PM. Reason: wording sound friendlier

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    Quote Originally Posted by tardman91 View Post
    Can anyone recommend a good off the shelf wheel to get online?
    Some of the premium wheels are hand-built and will go a few hundred thousand miles without broken spokes (although you may need to replace a few worn out rims and bearings over that time). Spending $1000 for a nice deep section rear wheel from a company like Zipp should do the trick.

    Some are not and spending just $500 for one wheel isn't guaranteed to get you better results than you had with your last wheel although for that sort of money the wheel should look prettier.

    If $1000 for a wheel is too rich for your blood and you don't care to frequently replace machine built wheels pick a reputable one man shop (like Peter White Cycles), give them a call, and have them build something appropriate (Ex: Deep V rim, 36 14/15 butted spokes, Shimano Ultegra hub) and you'll get something which will work and be inexpensive to repair after you run it over a road obstacle or wear out the braking surfaces (not unlikely if you live someplace wet like Seattle).

    Perusing his web site it looks like 124 for an Ultegra hub (with hard cups and cones), 73 for a deep-V in your choice of colors, maybe 45 for spokes, and 40 for labor, totaling $282. Or he might sell you something tougher.

    I'm really not interested in learning to build my own wheels right now. I'm going to talk to the shop tomorrow about my options and what they think. The manager will be back then. I'm thinking of picking up another rear wheel too so that I have one around so that I can ride if I run into this problem. Sitting at home stinks. That way I can also have a nice strong wheel to replace the rear wheel on my next road bike.
    You're unlikely to get a nice strong wheel from most bike shops since they make more money selling you something out of the Quality Bike Parts catalog than having some one build one and the guys selling to QBP make more money selling them something assembled by machines (without regard to what's needed for durability) than expensive hand labor.

    Someplace like Bicycle Wheel Warehouse is likely to sell you a good wheel; although having bought bad wheels from shops with good reputations (after which I gave up on buying bicycle wheels) I'd go to the one man shop first where you're definitely going to get the same guy who earned his reputation over the preceding decades instead of maybe landing the new mechanic on his first and final week of employment.

    Learning that the new guy screwed up when your rear wheel won't stay true due to insufficient tension is annoying. Folding an insufficiently tensioned wheel on a bump is painful (I think - it's been around fifteen years).
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 07-26-11 at 11:58 PM.

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice guys. I heard from the shop and they are going to credit me back for the wheel and let me upgrade to a 36 spoke Velocity Deep V wheel, which will run me about $100. That's what I was hoping for, and is the most cost effective option for me (which is more important than I would like it to be right now, but so is life).
    I did a lot of reading on the Pete White Cycles page and it was very imformative. Maybe in the future I'll give him a call when funds allow. One day I would like to learn to build my own whees, but for now I'm going to focus a little more on basic maintenance that doesn't require me to invest in a truing stand and tension meter and so forth. Baby steps...

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    Senior Member tardman91's Avatar
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    Picked up a Velocity Chucker 36h wheel today in exchange for my old one at the shop. Haven't gotten a chance to really ride it yet, but it sure does look nice. The best part is no more broken spokes! Knock on wood...

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    chukker is a great rim for clydes. it's the same 30mm profile as a deep v but with a wider (24mm) base. It's super duper strong. when i was building my commuter wheels it was between that and a mavic A 719. Ultimately i went with the Mavic because I got a great deal on a mavic 317disc front wheel so i wanted to have a matching look and finish.

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    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    chukker........... it's the same 30mm profile as a deep v

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    Quote Originally Posted by motobecane69 View Post
    it's the same 30mm profile as a deep v but with a wider (24mm) base.
    No.

    ERD 580 on the Chukker vs. ERD 582 on a Vee. Chukkers are 24 x 32.
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